Mankins

[SanAngeloState]

It takes a remarkable lack of self-awareness to not realize that it was not only this poster, but every single poster on this board that is having a laugh at your abject stupidity.

I will say though that this board has gone downhill since your arrival.

How do you know? You speak for everyone on the board now?

Are you a jerk or what? I didn't find it hard to believe that Esiason said the Jets were more talented than us. You insulted me for even contemplating it. That makes me laughable? Or does that make you a jerk? Half the people in the thread agreed with him. Is "everyone" laughing at them too?

 

[mgteich]

What a fine item for a poll.

How do you know? You speak for everyone on the board now?

Are you a jerk or what? I didn't find it hard to believe that Esiason said the Jets were more talented than us. You insulted me for even contemplating it. That makes me laughable? Or does that make you a jerk? Half the people in the thread agreed with him. Is "everyone" laughing at them too?

 

[bucky]

As Breer aptly points out on Boston.com, the difference between tendering Mankins at the original compensation or at the top level would be just over $1.7 mil. I think the Pats tender him at the low number and hope that someone gives up the 1st round pick. Mankins is a good player, but I would rather have the money and late 1st to shore up the defense.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

As Breer aptly points out on Boston.com, the difference between tendering Mankins at the original compensation or at the top level would be just over $1.7 mil. I think the Pats tender him at the low number and hope that someone gives up the 1st round pick. Mankins is a good player, but I would rather have the money and late 1st to shore up the defense.

You're assuming that the Patriots would prefer the latter scenario. I don't think that's the case at all.

Also, in order to get a first for Mankins at the original-round tender, that means they must make Gostkowski available for no more than a second-round tender (and possibly, even worse, for an original-round tender, which would be a fourth-round pick). If they give Gostkowski a 1 or a 1+3 tender but give Mankins the original round tender, all they could get for Mankins is a 2.

I expect Mankins will get the 1+3 tender, and Gostkowski will get at least the 1.

 

[bucky]

You're assuming that the Patriots would prefer the latter scenario. I don't think that's the case at all.

Also, in order to get a first for Mankins at the original-round tender, that means they must make Gostkowski available for no more than a second-round tender (and possibly, even worse, for an original-round tender, which would be a fourth-round pick). If they give Gostkowski a 1 or a 1+3 tender but give Mankins the original round tender, all they could get for Mankins is a 2.

I expect Mankins will get the 1+3 tender, and Gostkowski will get at least the 1.

I don't understand your logic there - which would they only get a 2 for Mankins if the give him the original tender? Why are you tying Ghost and Mankins together like that?

I'm not sure what the Pats would prefer, but I'm saying that's what I would like to see - I would be very happy to get a 1st for Mankins. I would also be quite happy to get a 2nd for Ghost. He was just slightly above average this year and if someone wants to give away a 2 for him, by all means.

Also, don't forget that the Pats retain the right to match offers for both of these guys. I know there's the possibility of the poison pill, but that hasn't happened in the last 2 off-seasons, I believe.

 

[spacecrime]

Exactly. Sometimes we seem to operate on the premise that the other 31 GMs in the NFL are morons.

Tell me you were never surprised by how much someone paid for another player, or that you never saw a trade you thought was ridiculous. You agree with everything Matt Millen did? Dan Snyder? You thought it was briliant for the Jets to give up two firsts and a fourth to move up 7 spots in the draft for Dwayne Robertson? What if I were to say someone might offer two firsts for Roy Williams? Is that harder to believe than a first and a third for Mankins?

You only need one team to think differently than you do, to place greater or less value on a player than you do.

And thinking differently doesn't make the others morons, it just makes them think differently than you do. This is a distinction that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I don't understand your logic there - which would they only get a 2 for Mankins if the give him the original tender? Why are you tying Ghost and Mankins together like that?

Because that's what the CBA says; if a team both:
(A) Gives a first-round tender to a player who WASN'T a first-round pick, and
(B) Gives an original-round tender to a player who WAS a first-round pick,

then the compensation for (B) automatically drops to a second-round pick.

I'm not sure what the Pats would prefer, but I'm saying that's what I would like to see - I would be very happy to get a 1st for Mankins. I would also be quite happy to get a 2nd for Ghost. He was just slightly above average this year and if someone wants to give away a 2 for him, by all means.

Except that, historically, kickers that don't flame out in their first year or two tend not to peak until their early 30s or later. In other words, Gostkowski likely still has room to improve.

And personally I'd rather have Mankins than the 1.

 

[bucky]

Because that's what the CBA says; if a team both:
(A) Gives a first-round tender to a player who WASN'T a first-round pick, and
(B) Gives an original-round tender to a player who WAS a first-round pick,

then the compensation for (B) automatically drops to a second-round pick.



Except that, historically, kickers that don't flame out in their first year or two tend not to peak until their early 30s or later. In other words, Gostkowski likely still has room to improve.

And personally I'd rather have Mankins than the 1.

Ah, I didn't know that. Since 1st round picks typically sign 5 year contracts, it's not often you see a 1st round RFA.

If this is the case, I tender Ghost with a 2 and Mankins at original-round level.

I agree Ghost can improve, but he's not worth a big contract and a 2nd round pick.

As for Mankins, he's good but a little overrated. I think the Pats might actually be better moving Light to LG and putting Vollmer at LT.

 

[Feep50]

Mankins has to stay on the Patriots. He has the best "nut-punch" in the NFL! That's worth a hellava lot more than a 1st and a lousy 3rd!

 

[dryheat44]

Tell me you were never surprised by how much someone paid for another player, or that you never saw a trade you thought was ridiculous. You agree with everything Matt Millen did? Dan Snyder? You thought it was briliant for the Jets to give up two firsts and a fourth to move up 7 spots in the draft for Dwayne Robertson? What if I were to say someone might offer two firsts for Roy Williams? Is that harder to believe than a first and a third for Mankins?

You only need one team to think differently than you do, to place greater or less value on a player than you do.

And thinking differently doesn't make the others morons, it just makes them think differently than you do. This is a distinction that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle.

All good, but you can't tell me that half the proposals seen on this board are based on the fact that Belichick can fleece other GMs at will. Trade Rohan Davey for a 2nd round pick might be my all time favorite, but there's a lot more. Belichick apparently has the ability to get pro bowlers for low-round draft choices and bottom-of-the-roster guys. I just don't know why he hasn't done so yet. the rather unique case of Moss excepted.

In this case specifically, the premise was that it was Belichick's best move to let Mankins go in favor of a draft pick that would replace him at a fraction of the cost, and it was the other GM's best move to trade the draft pick that could be used to get a starting-caliber offensive guard to get Mankins at a multiple of the cost. Could it happen? Sure. There's things like leadership ability and veteran presence involved in some cases. There's also been (in the past) a salary floor that a team might conceivably have to take on a big contract to reach. There's contending teams and rebuilding teams. There's marketing reasons which explain the value of Williams to the Cowboys and Tebow to the Jaguars. And maybe there really is one incompetent GM in the NFL, but those guys don't last too long unless they also own the team. But typically the blueprint for success for Team A is the same as Team B. Giving up a 2nd round pick to acquire Rohan Davey is not a good idea for any team.

I suppose it doesn't hurt to postulate the Patriots can acquire DeMarcus Ware for Eric Alexander, Sam Aiken and a 2nd round pick, I just choose not to live in that world.

 

[MaineMan]

. . . . I suppose it doesn't hurt to postulate the Patriots can acquire DeMarcus Ware for Eric Alexander, Sam Aiken and a 2nd round pick, I just choose not to live in that world.

Actually, I'd LOVE to live in that world. Unfortunately, the guy who provides the (ahem) gateway to that world hasn't been returning my phone calls recently.

Back to the topic . . .

No way I see the Pats losing Mankins, maybe not even for a 1st and a 3rd. Also, no way I see the Pats moving Light in a trade (as some have suggested), at least not until the Pats have a viable long-term (anything more than about 2-3 games) backup to Vollmer/Kaczur -and LeVoir ain't it.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Because that's what the CBA says; if a team both:
(A) Gives a first-round tender to a player who WASN'T a first-round pick, and
(B) Gives an original-round tender to a player who WAS a first-round pick,

then the compensation for (B) automatically drops to a second-round pick.



Except that, historically, kickers that don't flame out in their first year or two tend not to peak until their early 30s or later. In other words, Gostkowski likely still has room to improve.

And personally I'd rather have Mankins than the 1.

H'm, I didn't know that myself. Is there any reason NE would not be allowed to tender Mankins at the highest level and tender Gostkowski at the 1st round level? I can see a scum sucking weasel like Polian using their #63 pick to bid for a proven fresh young kicker...it kills two birds with one stone were he to do such a thing.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I suppose it doesn't hurt to postulate the Patriots can acquire DeMarcus Ware for Eric Alexander, Sam Aiken and a 2nd round pick, I just choose not to live in that world.

Accursed radical thinker.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I can see a scum sucking weasel like Polian using their #63 pick to bid for a proven fresh young kicker...it kills two birds with one stone were he to do such a thing.

That is a scary thought and I would hate to see it happen.

 

[dryheat44]

I'd trade Gostkowski for a 2nd rounder and not think twice about it. He's a kicker. He's a very good kicker, but you can get the best kicker out of college for much cheaper.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I'd trade Gostkowski for a 2nd rounder and not think twice about it. He's a kicker. He's a very good kicker, but you can get the best kicker out of college for much cheaper.

I don't think I could. Average kickers can cost you games. Money kickers can win you superbowls. I think Gots is a money kicker.

I seem to remember years ago a game the Patriots played at KC. Bledsoe was our QB and we were losing 17 to 14 or something like that and on the last drive of the game, he marched us down the field and we brought in Viniteri for the last second FG try and Viniteri missed it. It was devastating! I want to avoid that feeling in the future.

 

[bucky]

That is a scary thought and I would hate to see it happen.

You guys are overrating Ghost. Polian would have to be an idiot to overpay for him and give up a 2nd round pick. Especially considering guys like Rackers and Shayne Graham are available.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

You guys are overrating Ghost. Polian would have to be an idiot to overpay for him and give up a 2nd round pick. Especially considering guys like Rackers and Shayne Graham are available.

Perhaps, though Polian is carrying two PKs on his roster and paying Viniteri a pretty penny, cut them both and offer Gostkowski a competitive tender, and make BB go fish instead....

 

[JackBauer]

How do you know? You speak for everyone on the board now?

Do you even read what people say when they respond to your posts?

Are you a jerk or what? I didn't find it hard to believe that Esiason said the Jets were more talented than us. You insulted me for even contemplating it. That makes me laughable? Or does that make you a jerk? Half the people in the thread agreed with him. Is "everyone" laughing at them too?

You clearly haven't spent much time on this forum, because half the posters in a thread believing something is not really evidence I would cite in your favor.

Furthermore, I didn't insult you for contemplating it. I insulted you based on the risible "reasoning" you employed, just like you did yet again in this thread. Apparently you are under the illusion that the offseason in the NFL is just like the offseason in Madden. I can't find any other way to justify the lunacy you posted in this thread and elsewhere (let's trade Wilfork and draft Dan Williams, who would be better AND cheaper!).

I mean, really?

 

[MaineMan]

I'd trade Gostkowski for a 2nd rounder and not think twice about it. He's a kicker. He's a very good kicker, but you can get the best kicker out of college for much cheaper.

Interesting factoid. In 2005, the Pats franchised Vinatieri and, IIRC, he delayed signing the tender until well after the draft. The Pats picked up a UDFA kicker as insurance and he apparently did well enough in camp that Vinatieri relented and signed. The Pats then tried to slide this kicker through waivers to the P/S to have for the next season when Vinatieri was certain to be gone. But, Chicago claimed him so the Pats ended up having to draft Gostkowski in 2006.

Robbie Gould, BTW.