mankins with tampa

[AzPatsFan]

So you think the O-Line looks better than it did last year? Of course you don't. Mankins was covering for the play of both Solder and Wendell last year (Wendell moreso). Again, if you have knowledge on how the OL works as a cohesive unit, you can understand that guards and tackles assist one another all the time with their assignments. If there is a weak link, he gets the most help. If you don't believe this to be the case, then why do YOU believe that Solder's play has dipped so badly this season compared to 2012 and 2013?

Mankins has been fine in Tampa Bay. Their games are on up here almost every weekend. He even hyperextended his knee in Week 1 and still looks like he could walk in here and be the best OL on the team. And I really don't care that much about the cap space saved this year. Unless something drastic happened with our cap that I'm not aware of, the team could have kept Mankins so that Brady wasn't peeling himself off the turf after almost every drop back while shaking his head at this seive of an OL.

In the end, the underlined is a ridiculous statement, as I'm sure you're well aware. The bolded is the gist of why you're disagreeing, I take it. It's sometimes hard to admit that your favorite team screwed up.



His play wasn't declining at all. If you watched this OL since the beginning of 2012, you'd realize how much he'd been helping out Solder and Wendell. If you don't believe that, then I pose the same question to you as I did to the guy I quoted above: why do YOU believe that Solder's play has dipped so badly this season compared to 2012 and 2013?



Given that you just admitted that we've downgraded at both guard positions and stayed the same at C so far, this statement doesn't make any sense. How would either of these not be the case with a stark improvement at LG? And who cares about the contract? Again, unless something happened with our cap room that I haven't been made aware of, the team could have easily afforded Mankins for at least one more season until they could put themselves in a better position to actually replace him without the drop off being so awfully extreme.



Given my geographic location, I would wager a guess that I've probably watched more Bucs games than either of you have (unfortunately). I feel comfortable in saying two things...

1. Nobody is "lighting it up in Tampa".

2. Mankins, hyperextended knee and all, could still walk in here and be both the best LG and the best LT (based on what we saw in Miami last year) on the squad.



Every player has a bad play from time to time. Mankins is no exception. Brady had a bad play or two during the AFCCG. Should the Pats ship him out too?



That's something that's going to need to be figured out quickly or Brady is going to be on IR before the season is over.

Believe it or not the line is actually slightly better this year than last.

I was worried about Brady and IR then. At least they are attempting to fix it, now.

Can he survive for a handfull of more games is the question.

 

[shmessy]

Believe it or not the line is actually slightly better this year than last.

I was worried about Brady and IR then. At least they are attempting to fix it, now.

Can he survive for a handfull of more games is the question.

I wouldn't go THAT far, but it is amazing how short some people's (like Kontra's) memories are.

I think last year's line at this point was better than this year's mainly because they had Blount back there instead of the inactive or invisible (so far) James White. The running back game was far better and deeper with Blount. Opposing D's weren't pinning their ears back and flying as much with the bigger, more punishing run threat.

THE O line was still bad last year. Just slightly better than this year.

 

[Kontradiction]

Believe it or not the line is actually slightly better this year than last.

I was worried about Brady and IR then. At least they are attempting to fix it, now.

Can he survive for a handfull of more games is the question.

No, it really isn't. You're making the fatal mistake of using sacks as the end-all measurement of the O-Line and that's always been a faulty way to look at it. The team downgraded at two positions (RG and LG) and stayed the same at one (C) while Solder's play has noticeably dipped. Given those three facts, I'm not sure how you're trying to make the case that this OL has been better.

I wouldn't go THAT far, but it is amazing how short some people's (like Kontra's) memories are.

My memory works fine. If you'll remember, I was one of the first people to point out how bad Wendell and Connolly were at their respective positions in 2012 and was met with criticism because PFF, in all of their glory, declared Wendell a top C. One year later and suddenly a lot more people were on the same bandwagon.

I think last year's line at this point was better than this year's mainly because they had Blount back there instead of the inactive or invisible (so far) James White. The running back game was far better and deeper with Blount. Opposing D's weren't pinning their ears back and flying as much with the bigger, more punishing run threat.

What does that have to do with the fact that the Patriots are doing a horrible job of giving Brady a clean pocket in the shotgun? Further, how do you explain the fact that the Pats aren't able to open up holes in the running game?

THE O line was still bad last year. Just slightly better than this year.

No, it was much better than this year... which is scary. At no point last year, even with rookie wideouts, did the offense have to become watered down due to the fact that the OL couldn't give Brady adequate time to let longer routes develop down the field. That's happened in Weeks 2 and 3 this year.

 

[eom]

Logan Mankins, LG, +1.3

Breakdown: Logan Mankins posted his first positive grade in a Tampa Bay uniform while also surrendering his first sack since moving on from the Patriots. The sack was the only bit of pressure he allowed in the game however and his run blocking was respectable.

Signature Stat: Surrendered one total pressure (a sack) on 45 snaps in pass protection

 

[ATippett56]

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/96346/patriots-offense-going-downhill

The pre-season trade of guard Logan Mankins may be looking like a big mistake too. Brady has been pressured on 26 percent of his dropbacks, which would be the highest since that data became available in 2009.

He’s also been sacked on 6.2 percent of his dropbacks, which would be his highest since 2001. This had led to three lost fumbles for Brady, same as he had in the previous two seasons combined.

 

[supafly]

Yeah, as I've stated from the get go, I don't have as much problem with the decision itself since I believe it will help for the future, as I have with the timing of the choice. That seems to be quite odd considering that we brought in an outsider to coach the OL.

 

[shmessy]

BTW, did anyone see the Tampa Bay blocking on that crucial Saints safety down the stretch in the TB-NO game last Sunday?


http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2014100505/2014/REG5/buccaneers@saints#menu=gameinfo|contentId:0ap3000000405760&tab=videos

 

[New England Pride]

BTW, did anyone see the blocking on the Saints safety down the stretch in the TB-NO game last Sunday?

You know who missed that play? Squeeky boy Mazz.

 

[Jackson 2]

You know who missed that play? Squeeky boy Mazz.

Of course he missed it. The Dwarf doesn't watch any games. Such a pedestrian pastime would be beneath him, although it's hard to imagine how anything could physically be beneath someone who's 4'9" in his lifts...

 

[1960Pats]

I can't stand the way the Pats do business.

Do they ever sign on the dotted line with the intention of paying the player, or all contracts signed using invisible ink?

If Big Vince didn't get hurt last year and lose his leverage, they would have dumped him too.

But hey, at least the team has cap room (again) and we have the top paid HC. I guess those high priced tickets have to pay for something, if not players.

 

[Marinlik]

I wouldn't go THAT far, but it is amazing how short some people's (like Kontra's) memories are.

I think last year's line at this point was better than this year's mainly because they had Blount back there instead of the inactive or invisible (so far) James White. The running back game was far better and deeper with Blount. Opposing D's weren't pinning their ears back and flying as much with the bigger, more punishing run threat.

THE O line was still bad last year. Just slightly better than this year.

Disagree. Watch Mankins on the backfield camera from last year. You will see how much he did for the running game. We either ran behind him, had him make the crucial linebacker block, or we pulled him to the play side. He was still a very good run blocker last year. Much better than what we have today. It wasn't Blount that opened the holes that we don't have today. That was Mankins.

I agree it was time to move on from Mankins. His salary was to high for what he did. But the team ****ed up by not having a replacement ready. You shouldn't move on from a key piece if you don't have a replacement ready. And looking at the play last year and how they used Mankins, you could see that he was the key piece of the line.

 

[Marinlik]

I can't stand the way the Pats do business.

Do they ever sign on the dotted line with the intention of paying the player, or all contracts signed using invisible ink?

If Big Vince didn't get hurt last year and lose his leverage, they would have dumped him too.

But hey, at least the team has cap room (again) and we have the top paid HC. I guess those high priced tickets have to pay for something, if not players.

This is the way contracts are in the NFL. All teams do this. If the players really want that money then they should go for more guaranteed money and and not stock up on that insane back end base salary that many contracts have.

 

[TomPatriot]

Mankins was brutal on that play. His read was bad and slow. He also had a huge holding call in the 4th Q.

 

[zoostation]

You know who missed that play? Squeeky boy Mazz.

Squeaky Macaroni is holed up in his basement with a box of dunkin donuts watching baseball playoffs and sobbing because his team isn't playing.

 

[shmessy]

I can't stand the way the Pats do business.

Do they ever sign on the dotted line with the intention of paying the player, or all contracts signed using invisible ink?

If Big Vince didn't get hurt last year and lose his leverage, they would have dumped him too.

But hey, at least the team has cap room (again) and we have the top paid HC. I guess those high priced tickets have to pay for something, if not players.

Yeah, it pays for the longest streak in the NFL of 10+ game winning seasons.

Tampa Bay is 1-4. They had no problem taking on Mankins' contract. They cut Revis.

 

[RayClay]

I can't stand the way the Pats do business.

Do they ever sign on the dotted line with the intention of paying the player, or all contracts signed using invisible ink?

If Big Vince didn't get hurt last year and lose his leverage, they would have dumped him too.

But hey, at least the team has cap room (again) and we have the top paid HC. I guess those high priced tickets have to pay for something, if not players.

You could root for Oakland.

If you recall, Mr. Mankins held out, called the owner a liar and got his gaudy contract making him one of the highest paid guards (second highest, if i recall). He signed a contract with a lot of non guaranteed money on the back end and never renegotiated any of it into guaranteed money where he could have also eased the cap for the team (as other Patriots have).

Maybe he'll get it all from Tampa, maybe not. He's better than what we have now, but we'll develop and acquire young replacements and move on developing our team while winning over ten games a year and making the playoffs (results of that philosophy), while teams that adopt your philosophy have one or two year windows, then have to cut a bunch of old injured players still making top dollar and go into the cellar for 4-5 years or more (if their successful management teams survive) or longer.

On the bright side, you'll get some of those shiny high draft picks that will always have twenty year hall of fame careers, because you just know they will, until they all get old at the same time and you nosedive if you were lucky enough to gel into that 1 or 2 year window again.

 

[Rob0729]

Are we going to argue this all year? The people who hated the trade did victory laps after the KC game where the o-line did not perform great in a blow out (although wasn't nearly as bad as people made it). The people who defend the trade are now doing victory laps after the o-line played well vs. the Bengals and Mankins played like crap this past week.

I will say this, the Bucs are losers in this trade. They traded away future value to get better this year in a year their team is bad and have little shot to make the playoffs with or without Mankins. Teams like the Bucs should never make a trade like this because it provides no real benefit.

Time will tell if the trade works out for the Pats. If what we saw from Wright last week is a preview for what we will see for the rest of the season, it is big win for the Pats both short term and long term. That is even before the fourth round pick. If Wright averages 5 catches for 85 yards the rest of the way he will have 64 catches for 1055 yards for the season even after the slow start. I would assume it would be too much to expect he would average a TD a game the rest of the season, but he could have six or seven TDs by the end of the season.

Otherwise, all this arguing about Mankins is useless. He is gone. The Pats have to use what they have for better or worse. We should all just root for Wright to build on his last week performance and hope by the end of the year the Bucs fans are all complaining that the Bucs traded away Wright and a fourth for Mankins.

 

[shmessy]

Are we going to argue this all year? .

Yes, I believe we will.

 

[patchick]

I can't stand the way the Pats do business.

Do they ever sign on the dotted line with the intention of paying the player, or all contracts signed using invisible ink?

Look around, NO team in the NFL signs long contracts with the intention of seeing them all through. That's not how contract structures work any more. The full length is typically for a combination of accounting purposes (spreading out signing bonuses) and for agent/player chest-thumping ("We signed a $75-million deal!")

The difference between the Patriots and the rest of the league isn't that the Pats cut players before the end of their deals -- that's routine. It's that the they trade players before they'd have to cut them.

 

[Jackson 2]

I can't stand the way the Pats do business.

Do they ever sign on the dotted line with the intention of paying the player, or all contracts signed using invisible ink?

If Big Vince didn't get hurt last year and lose his leverage, they would have dumped him too.

But hey, at least the team has cap room (again) and we have the top paid HC. I guess those high priced tickets have to pay for something, if not players.

Someone has misinformed you about how business is done with player contracts in the NFL, not just in Foxboro.