mankins with tampa

[Bruins29]

The Pats seem to be following a procedure that seems to make sense. They cut a guy like Mankins to free up cap space. They have approx (depending on who you believe) $14 million in cap space.

What I assume they are doing are getting the season started and seeing where the real issues are. Hopefully they will use this cap money to fix the issues. It seems like a better way of doing it than just assuming where the issues will be and throwing cap money at that before the season starts.

They have made several mid season trades over the years that have helped the team. I am sure they know they can do it again. They have pics and probably even trade bait with a DB. Also, I would have no problem with them flipping picks in the next couple of drafts. It takes several years in most cases for draft picks to become established players. With TB at 37 its not like any picks in the next couple of years are going to help him as much as picks a few years ago.

Plus if he keeps getting killed in the pocket, it wont matter anyway.

 

[Kontradiction]

this might come as a surprise, but I actively try and avoid reading some of the novels you and some of the others here post. It's a waste of time to be frank as there are some here who regardless of fact's will always have the stance of "I'm right, you're wrong, I'm smart, you're dumb, My arguement is flawless, you're arguement is a strawman arguement"


Mankins is too old and frankly not skilled enough anymore to be getting the kind of money he is getting. no desire to take a paycut means hes not going to be a patriot for long, BB got some value out of him.

Thank you for confirming that debating with you is a waste of time. I had originally started typing facts into this post before I realized that I would simply be wasting the effort. You may want to try reading the posts next time instead of ignoring them then forming a hilariously bad straw man. It would be the more intelligent thing to do.

 

[chasa]

Thank you for confirming that debating with you is a waste of time. I had originally started typing facts into this post before I realized that I would simply be wasting the effort. You may want to try reading the posts next time instead of ignoring them then forming a hilariously bad straw man. It would be the more intelligent thing to do.

I don't enjoy debating in general because it's stupid, anyone who thinks "who can argue better" is a valid form of discussion is a silly goose.

This whole mankins discussion can be broken down simply as the following

Is Mankins better then devey?

Was Mankins going to be a patriot next year?

Is Mankins the integral kog that would bring a superbowl to the patriots this year?

The answers I have for those three questions are

Yes

No

No

 

[shmessy]

Again, you're more than welcome to refresh me on the last time the Pats, in the BB era, have had to hold back their passing attack to nothing but short, quick dump offs to assist the putrid OL. You're also welcome to refresh me on the last time Brady showed an OBVIOUS level of disgust with the unit on the field.

2013.

 

[shmessy]

So Tampa being the worst team in the NFL means that Devey is a better option than Mankins for this year's team?

Obviously you didn't understand the very first word typed in Post #87.

 

[Kontradiction]

I don't enjoy debating in general because it's stupid, anyone who thinks "who can argue better" is a valid form of discussion is a silly goose.

This whole mankins discussion can be broken down simply as the following

Is Mankins better then devey?

Was Mankins going to be a patriot next year?

Is Mankins the integral kog that would bring a superbowl to the patriots this year?

The answers I have for those three questions are

Yes

No

No

The offensive line is an integral cog to the Patriots chances to get to the Super Bowl this year. With Mankins, they needed improvement at two positions: RG and C. They might have already had those on staff with Fleming and Stork. Without Mankins, the entire interior of the OL needs to be upgraded. That means that even if Fleming (or whomever else they line up at guard) and Stork work out, the other guard spot still needs to be addressed. The team has needlessly shot itself in the foot and the result is Brady either peeling himself off the turf or throwing the ball before he's ready because the pocket consistently collapses.

 

[shmessy]

condon84 said: ↑
So Tampa being the worst team in the NFL means that Devey is a better option than Mankins for this year's team?

Of course not. He's stretching because it's very difficult to defend this trade when the Raiders, of all teams, hit your 37 year old QB six times and sack him another two. Thus far, the Pats OL ranks among the worst in the NFL. Of course Mankins could have helped. We now have to hope the fix to the issue is already on the team and that Wright ends up able to contribute in some way, shape, or form.

Obviously you didn't understand the very first word typed in Post #87 either.

 

[Kontradiction]

2013.

Tell me again, what game in 2013 did Brady look at a specific O-Lineman and shake his head? That's right, he didn't. Brady has never shown an obvious on-field level of disgust with a unit. He did this past Sunday, though. That was shortly before he got up off the turf from another hit... this time shaken up to the point where he had to hunch over and grimace in pain one play later. But you're right. The O-Line looks just fantastic. Mankins wouldn't be an improvement over either Devey or Cannon or Connolly.

 

[shmessy]

So you've literally not read a single one of my posts then? Because this straw man that you're attempting to set up here is nothing like what I've been saying, and is certainly not the crux of the issue with the team.

Talk about STRAWMAN!!!

You keep claiming that I am saying that the Patriots did NOT get worse at LG.!!!!!!

I have said nothing of the sort.

 

[Kontradiction]

condon84 said: ↑
So Tampa being the worst team in the NFL means that Devey is a better option than Mankins for this year's team?




Obviously you didn't understand the very first word typed in Post #87 either.

I understood it fine. I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that you're stretching to unbelievable lengths to defend a move that wasn't at all necessary and has resulted in a decline over the line play last season. Again, the Pats could have kept Mankins this year, provided Brady with a cleaner pocket while still addressing C and RG, and chose to part ways with him in the offseason when they were better prepared to either draft or sign a competent replacement. Everything considered, it's absolutely mind boggling to me that you're still defending this.

 

[shmessy]

So you've literally not read a single one of my posts then? Because this straw man that you're attempting to set up here is nothing like what I've been saying, and is certainly not the crux of the issue with the team.

Pot meet kettle, Mr "Shmessy Claims Devey Is a Better Option Than Mankins For This Year's Team",

 

[shmessy]

Again, the Pats could have kept Mankins this year, provided Brady with a cleaner pocket while still addressing C and RG, and chose to part ways with him in the offseason when they were better prepared to either draft or sign a competent replacement. Everything considered, it's absolutely mind boggling to me that you're still defending this.

So you were OK with Hooman as the only Move TE?

53 players on a roster.

BTW if you think I am the only person here defending this trade, you need to open your eyes a bit wider.

 

[Kontradiction]

Talk about STRAWMAN!!!

You keep claiming that I am saying that the Patriots did NOT get worse at LG.!!!!!!

I have said nothing of the sort.

Pot meet kettle.

Please quote where I insisted that was the angle you were taking and attacked you for it. I'll wait...

So you were OK with Hooman as the only Move TE?

53 players on a roster.

Not at all. I said as much here and in the draft forum (it's this place where we discuss college and upcoming draft prospects). There were numerous other directions the team could have gone in during the offseason to improve at TE2 without trading away their best OL. The draft says hi.

 

[shmessy]

Please quote where I insisted that was the angle you were taking and attacked you for it. I'll wait...

Didn't have to wait long......

Kontradiction Post #108:

"......But you're right. The O-Line looks just fantastic. Mankins wouldn't be an improvement over either Devey or Cannon or Connolly."

 

[condon84]

Obviously you didn't understand the very first word typed in Post #87.

Sure I did. I also see that you keep defending the trade that so far has crippled the OL because of who was left to start in place of Mankins. Granted, our OL as a whole has not played well, but Devey is on a different level of crap.

 

[chasa]

More conjecture.

Is not having mankins the only reason this team wont win the superbowl this yea?

 

[Kontradiction]

Didn't have to wait long......

Kontradiction Post #108:

"......But you're right. The O-Line looks just fantastic. Mankins wouldn't be an improvement over either Devey or Cannon or Connolly."

Let's play a game of what you said, what I said. What you said...

You keep claiming that I am saying that the Patriots did NOT get worse at LG

What I said...

But you're right. The O-Line looks just fantastic. Mankins wouldn't be an improvement over either Devey or Cannon or Connolly.

I made exactly zero mention of LG. What I DID mention is that Mankins would be a better option than everybody they've been fielding along the interior OL.

But no, your general point that I'm attacking is that this trade has been a good move thus far and that Belichick "picked Lovie's pocket". As I said originally, if that's the case, then opposing D-Linemen are picking Tom Brady's.

Is not having mankins the only reason this team wont win the superbowl this yea?

Having an incompetent OL that can't win in the trenches would be a reason for it. As a general rule, if you can't win in the trenches, you can't win in this league. Now you may want to go back and start actually reading my posts before jumping into a debate head-first.

 

[chasa]

Having an incompetent OL that can't win in the trenches would be a reason for it. As a general rule, if you can't win in the trenches, you can't win in this league. Now you may want to go back and start actually reading my posts before jumping into a debate head-first.

And you seem to be completely ignoring what I said, which is exactly why i don't read your long ass posts.

The patriots offensive line was a problem last year, and the year before and the year before.

Mankins was OVERPAID, and REFUSED to take a paycut. in order for the PATRIOTS as a team to get better he had to go, and the patriots decided that sooner was better then later.

Simple as that.

 

[shmessy]

Let's play a game of what you said, what I said. What you said...

You keep claiming that I am saying that the Patriots did NOT get worse at LG

What I said...

But you're right. The O-Line looks just fantastic. Mankins wouldn't be an improvement over either Devey or Cannon or Connolly.

I made exactly zero mention of LG. What I DID mention is that Mankins would be a better option than everybody they've been fielding along the interior OL.

You're basing your argument over parsing the terms "LG" vs "interior OL"? REALLY?

For the umpteenth time, I have NEVER stated Mankins is NOT a better option for LG, Interior of Line or anywhere under the auspices of Mr DiGulglielmo. Is that clear? So the second bolded sentence in your post is pure make-believe. I have no idea from where you are conjuring that.

I really, don't have anything to add to the game you are referring to in the first sentence of your post, Kontra. Anyone reading those two examples you give can clearly see what it is.

The Patriots OL was a bad pass protecting line in 2013. It has gotten slightly worse so far in 2014. What saved the Patriots O in 2013 was a very good and deep stable of running backs so they could grind out wins. In 2014, they have replaced LaGarette Blount with James White.

The Patriots have upgraded at Move TE. The Patriots are getting what may be the first pick of Day 3 in the draft.

The Mankins trade was a big net win for the Patriots. Losing Blount and replacing him with James White was not (so far).

 

[Kontradiction]

And you seem to be completely ignoring what I said, which is exactly why i don't read your long ass posts.

You're getting mad. I like that. Maybe if you actually read my long ass posts before jumping in, you would have a more firm understanding of the dicussion. But I understand how 2-3 can be some heavy reading.

The patriots offensive line was a problem last year, and the year before and the year before.

2012 and 2013: The issue on the OL is C and RG.
2011: The OL was not an issue

So, basically, the Pats, in an attempt to solve the issues at C (drafting Stork) and RG (drafting Fleming, playing Devey there), needlessly created an issue at all three OL positions. The result is that a team like the Raiders can post 2 sacks, 6 quarterback hits, and countless other pressures combined with the fact that the coaching staff has to water down the offensive playbook to try and mask the issues along the OL. And yet you still think that trading Mankins was a good move? Tom Brady begs to differ.

Mankins was OVERPAID, and REFUSED to take a paycut. in order for the PATRIOTS as a team to get better he had to go, and the patriots decided that sooner was better then later.

How have the Patriots gotten better? They currently have the second to last ranked passing attack in the league (ahead of just the Jaguars, who should probably leapfrog them now that Bortles is starting) and they haven't shown the ability to protect their franchise quarterback (hence his disgust Sunday). In what way have they shown that their better thus far? The team could have kept Mankins until next offseason, dumped his salary, had FA and the draft to replace him, and used him to help stabilize the line this season. Instead, they dumped him a year too soon and have scrambled frantically since Week 1 to find a combination that works along the OL while Brady takes a beating along the way. Solid move thus far. I mean we're really killing it up front.

You're basing your argument over parsing the terms "LG" vs "interior OL"? REALLY?

Yes. LG is one position. Interior OL is three. I could easily make a point for four if I want to hammer away at Solder's decreased level of play without Mankins too. Wait, I already did that.

For the umpteenth time, I have NEVER stated Mankins is NOT a better option for LG, Interior of Line or anywhere under the auspices of Mr DiGulglielmo. Is that clear? So the second bolded sentence in your post is pure make-believe. I have no idea from where you are conjuring that.

I really, don't have anything to add to the game you are referring to in the first sentence of your post, Kontra. Anyone reading those two examples you give can clearly see what it is.

You stated that you believe Belichick picked Lovie Smith's pocket in this trade. In order for that to be fact, the following would have to be truths:

1. Belichick got better value in the trade.

2. The trade has paid dividends thus far.

3. The player we traded away has been admirably replaced.

#1 has yet to be determined. #2 has not happened (mostly because Brady doesn't have time to let other routes develop). #3 definitely hasn't happened. If anything, the OL that you were quick to point out, in your words, "STUNK" has only gotten worse.

The Patriots OL was a bad pass protecting line in 2013. It has gotten slightly worse so far in 2014. What saved the Patriots O in 2013 was a very good and deep stable of running backs so they could grind out wins. In 2014, they have replaced LaGarette Blount with James White.

I would accept this if this OL was capable of opening up running lanes. The Raiders were getting run on at a near historic rate. Against the Pats? Not so much. Why? Because the Patriots were, once again, getting dominated up front.

But then, this is still a piss poor excuse for trying to apologize for this OL. The 2013 Patriots, even with the issues at C and RG, were still able to line up in the shotgun and let longer developing routes take place down the field. The Steelers and second half of the Broncos games were good examples of that. The 2014 Patriots have yet to do that because neither the coaching staff nor the quarterback can trust the pass protection to hold up.

The Patriots have upgraded at Move TE. The Patriots are getting what may be the first pick of Day 3 in the draft.

Maybe that Day 3 pick can be a left or right guard that can hold up. Either that, or a new quarterback since this one seems destined to leave the field on a cart if the pass protection doesn't improve.

The trade was a big net win for the Patriots.

Tell that to Brady and the Pats passing attack.