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Mangini is BB's Trojan horse

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Tunescribe, Jan 17, 2006.

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  1. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No way is Mangini ready to be a head coach, and BB knows it. While I'm sure BB is disappointed to lose his promising young coordinator, I'll bet he's happy Mangini is landing with the Jets. Mangini was a gifted work-in-progress as defensive coordinator, but a WORK IN PROGRESS nonetheless. Plus, he has no expertise on the offensive side of the ball. If I were a Jets fan, I'd be tearing my hair out and screaming for Bradway's lynching. The Jets need stability, and won't get it with a green kid (no pun intended) like Eric. For more, check out this snippet from today's Herald:

    Despite the deal, questions remain regarding Mangini’s readiness to become a head coach. According to Patriots sources, he wasn’t always a take-charge type during defensive meetings this season, his first as defensive coordinator after five coaching the secondary.

    During the first half of the season in particular, a source said, he often acted more like he still had his old job than his new one.

    The result was a defensive game plan that minimized exposing the patchwork secondary at the expense of aggressiveness up front. The Patriots were ranked 31st in overall defense (386.3 yards per game) when the decision came to turn loose the front seven before the Dec. 4 game against the Jets. Tellingly, that decision came not from Mangini but frustrated head coach Bill Belichick. The result was one of the best defensive units in the league over the final six weeks of the season.
  2. BelichickFan

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    It would be easy for people (read: jester fans) to dismiss this as the Patriots piling on a guy who's leaving but we all remember the not so subtle statements by Seymour (and maybe others) about how they'd been asking for more aggressive defenses and that they (the coaches) finally listened.

    Reading between the lines and putting 2 and 2 together it sounds like the defensive leaders went to Bill and told him to get Mangini's sh!t together.
  3. SamBam39

    SamBam39 Rookie

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    I think it's easy to get carried away with this stuff.

    I'm sure Mangini will be an improvement over Herm, and he's very qualified in many ways. True, he could run into setbacks that he'll need to overcome, but assumming he'll do poorly is probably just projecting your dissappointment onto the Jets. He is considered a top young mind and I'm sure he'll be able to get help where he needs it.

    I say just wish him well and let's see what happens. I think he'll improve the Jets but the Pats will still be better.
  4. mtbykr

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    well

    Interesting--I am gonna go read that article!
  5. Tunescribe

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    Assuming Mangini will be an improvement over Herm is a huge stretch. Herm was a master motivator, while reports suggest that Mangini is very bright but didn't have a firm grasp of leadership. That's because of youth and inexperience. Certainly I'm disappointed he's leaving, as he showed promise of developing into a solid No. 2 guy behind BB. But the Jets need a guy like Fassell to sort through their mess, not an unproven kid, however smart he might be. Why do you wish him well? I sure don't!
  6. Brady'sButtBoy

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    I very much agree with Tunescribe's assessment of Mangini, but also with the shocking truth that even so, he's still an up grade from the (not so) Herminator......
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2006
  7. CT_Pats_Fan

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    But you aren't afforded the luxury of on-the-job training in New York. The gutter is littered with failed experiments there.

    Think about it...Parcells (love him or hate him) along with BB, couldn't win a super bowl in New York. And that's with a much better cap situation, a good core of players, and players plucked from the mid-90's Patriots (Curtis Martin in his prime).

    I kind of feel like I'm getting ready to watch an awful train wreck. If it wasn't the Jets, I'd look away...
  8. kurtinelson

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    You have to respect Mangini for attempting to rise to the challenge of becoming a HC of a franchise in an intense market, that is in a state of disaray. However, if that snippet that was in the Herald was true, that he lacked in leadership, then he's going to have a tough time succeeding.
  9. Bill's Girl

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    I agree with the train wreck assessment! I don't envy him having to rebuild that program. I wish him the best, but it would not surprise me to see him back with BB after this.......
  10. sieglo

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    He had to take the job. The deal is for something like $3M. If someone offers you a 2000% raise, you take it.
  11. DaBruinz

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    Sorry Sieglo, but I have to disagree with you. One of the reasons that the raise is so much is because of the fact that the situation he is going into is so untenable.

    A life lesson that I learned. Never take a job where they offer you a HUGE amount of money over what you were making previously without FULLY understanding the situation you are going into. It is a recipe for failure and no amount of money can fix that. And it will make it very hard for you to get another job. The damage that he could do to his reputation as a coach could cost him another job down the line.
  12. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I presume that the first year of Mangini's contract is guaranteed, perhaps along with a payment for being fired after Year One. He DID seek bb's advice after all.

    So, he's getting eight years of salary for taking on this presumably hopeless task. My guess is that he will be allowed to pay a bit for a coaching staff, especially coordinators, and get to coach for two years; now we are up 15 years worth of pay (not counting any TV shows, radio or endorsements).

    Could his career be wrecked if he fails as a head coach at 35? Come on, the worst is that his family is set for life, and he has to take a year off and come back to the game as a well experienced 38 year-old position coach.

    More likely is that he'd simply move on to somewhere else as a coordinator, an older and wiser man.

    I suppose many would have stayed and collected the short money. I suspect that he made the right decision for his family and his career.
  13. upstater1

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    Did he leave for the money? Consider, the "short money" might be taking the job instead of rejecting it. BB once turned down jobs knowing he could cash in better later, and on his own terms. There are a couple scenarios here. Mangini is a good coach and stays on for awhile. That means this was an excellent decision by him. Or, he completely flops and develops a rep akin to Butch Davis's, Al Saunders's, Rich Brooks, in which he never sniffs an NFL coaching job again. Yes, he's set for life, but he made considerably less money than he could have had he just waited a bit.

    Your rep is almost as valuable as the $$ in this business. Mularkey pretty much proved that when he tossed his 3 year contract in the trash.

    On a much smaller scale, I've made similar decisions in the past. I could have moved to a better job early on, but I knew if I waited and produced, i would have a lot more leverage over my salary. So I took two years at a lesser salary than offered until my project was complete, then I went back on the market and did much better than what was offered to me a few years earlier. (I'm also in a business in whcih people don't move around much and you only have 2 or 3 chances to make moves, so you maximize them.) It all depends on how confident you are in your future. We know that BB was very confident in his because he turned down head coaching jobs. How confident is Mangini?
  14. patsox23

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    I think it's hard to argue with the idea that Mangini would've been a hot property in a year or two - it's not like BB and this defense is going anywhere, the continuity in N.E. is special. He also would've had the benefit of another year of experience as a DC, and having his pick of jobs that AREN'T in the same division as BB and Saban.
  15. The Gr8est

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    This is not at all like Saban coming into the division. In fact, I think it is a slap in the face to BB that this guy who from all reports still needs a strong guiding hand in doing his jobs thinks he is ready to compete against guys like BB and Saban. All indications are that BB counseled him on numerous occasions that this was not a great time or choice for his first HC job.

    Whether it's arrogance, over-confidence or just greed, I think he's made a big mistake and has damaged his chances long-term at being a successful HC.

    Does he really think he's ready to compete with BB and Saban?

    He spent some time under BB but there is no indication he is considered anything remotely a "genius" like BB was before he got his first HC job.
  16. sieglo

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    You mean like what happened to Belichick in Cleveland? LOL.

    Worst case scenario he goes back to being an assistant or a coordinator for a few years. Big deal.

    In any case, I love the Pats response to this: Yep, we've got our new guy all lined up, sorry to see EM go, but he's just a cog in the machine.
  17. sieglo

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    You can't compare this to any situaion a person normally would encounter in real life, because the magnitude of the raise is so enormous. As someone else says -- worst case, he makes $6M over the next couple years, and loses the job. Then he is what -- a student of the BB school of defense with head coaching experience who failed in a situation that everyone regards as untenable. Worst case, he gets another coordinator position.

    He made the no-brainer choice, IMHO. I hate it, but that's reality. F'ing Jets -- just like the Yankees.
  18. lobster

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    During the game the camera panned to Belichick but Mangini was standing behind him looking kind of sheepish, not beside him like Romeo used to do. Some people learn quickly and thrive in a new position, but taking charge in such a heavy-duty media environment is a very tough assignment.
  19. Box_O_Rocks

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    I have no problem wishing Mangini well, I think any time one of BB's assistant coaches succeed its a reflection on BB and the NEP organization.

    On the leadership issue, changing environments where he is no longer trying to boss around guys he was working alongside the day before could correct that problem. His leadership style may be less intense then BB's or guys like Cowher, Mangini on the sidelines came across more like Joe Gibbs in his demeanor. He'll have a chance to try and imprint his way of doing things on a staff. He succeeded with a veteran secondary - a group packed full of egomaniacs - patience, it will either make us proud or give us many more opportunities to shake our heads and chuckle at the Jest's sense of humor.

    As to winning with the Jets, not this year! :D
  20. spacecrime

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    Henry Mancini would be an improvement over Herm. Wouldyou rather have Mangini or Herm as the pats head coach?

    The Jets wanted the guy who would give them teh best chance to return to glory, and that ain't Fassel. It's Mangini. I wish him well because despite the crap he is getting on this board, he did a masterful job of piecing together a Defensive Unit. If the offense/ST had held onto the football last Saturday, and we won, we would all be proud of the job Mangini did with the "patchwork" defense. We are only ripping him because players not under his control had butter fingers.
  21. jczxohn1

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    To me, the real question in all this is, who's going to run the Jets offense? Mangini may have the experience to oversee the defense and know whether his assistants are doing a solid job, but that isn't the real problem with the Jets. It's the offense, stupid! It looks like it's been run through by a peach-orchard boar! I pity the fool who steps up to take responsibility for it.
  22. Tunescribe

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    Mangini is an unproven commodity in head coaching terms with NO expertise on the offensive side of the ball and ONE year as defensive coordinator. His leadership ability is in serious question (re., the first post in this thread). Yeah, I think Fassel or even Tice would do a better short-term job cleaning up the Jets mess. Maybe Mangini can grow into the job, but who knows? I'm not ripping him for anything that happened this season or any other season. He's just not ready to be a head coach in the NFL and the Jets are taking a wild gamble on the kid. The "masterful job" you're referring to with this year's Pats defense was just as much the work of BB as it was Mangini. BB held his hand through the entire process. By the way, if you wish Mangini well in his new job you're not much of a Patriots fan -- he's now the enemy. And don't give us that garbage of "Well, I wish him well as long as the Patriots finish ahead of him."
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2006
  23. Bill's Girl

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    You are pretty dead on with this...... When BB took over in Cleveland he did not have much experience with the offense either. I think EM's time with the Jets will parallel BB's time with the Brown's!
  24. BelichickFan

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    NFL Network's Adam Shefter says he's interested in ex Patriots TE and asst. OL coach Jeff Davidson.

    That's actually one of the negatives some say about Mangini, he's been with Belichick his whole life and doesn't know a lot of NFL people other than those associated with Belichick.
  25. SoonerPatriot

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    Well if Little E thinks he has the stones to be a HC it's high time he got out and mingled a little bit. I wonder if he will have the balls to ask permission to talk to Pepper or any of the other assistants. Id love to see BB tell him to go F himself like he did Tom Jackson after SB 38.
  26. MoLewisrocks

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    A snipet from a piece about Davidson during last years SB week:


    "Davidson, an Akron, Ohio, native, was a Parade All-America offensive lineman who played collegiately at Ohio State. He was a fifth-round draft choice of the Denver Broncos in 1990.

    His NFL career with Denver and later New Orleans ended with a shoulder injury after four years. But Davidson was not through with the NFL. He became a volunteer assistant coach with the Saints in 1995, and two years later he joined the Patriots as Pete Carroll's tight ends coach. A year later he added assistant offensive line coach to his duties. When Carroll was replaced by Belichick in 2000, Davidson stayed in the same role.

    Now, with a changing of the guard at the coordinator level, Davidson is ready for his next challenge, and the line of succession makes sense if Belichick decides to promote from within."

    --------------

    He had 5 years with BB and never progressed beyond the positions he held under Carroll. While he was rumored to be an OC candidate last season, it's fairly obvious he wasn't that high on BB's radar. He not only didn't get the job here, he didn't get it with RAC either. He's the OLine coach in Cleveland. So if Eric goes this route he may be compiling an all rookie coaching staff. The JETS FO had apparently tried hard to convince Heimerdinger to stay on. According to Schefter he declined. Heimerdinger would probably rather flip hamburgers than have another year of Pennington to Bollinger to Testeverde to Bollinger on his resume.
  27. Bill's Girl

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    This is just an example, but the smartest thing George W. did when he took office was to surround himself with highly competent people. I would hope EM would be smart enough to do the same thing. I can't imagine the Jets being patient enough to wait for an all rookie staff to bloom!
  28. SoonerPatriot

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    Uhhh...that's highly debatable.
  29. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Actually, what he did was surround himself with all of his dad's old co-workers, who ended up creating and following their own agenda.

    Sorry, but I just couldn't let that go!


    Anyway, I feel that no matter what, Mangini has no chance in New York. His team is in shambles both talent-wise and salary cap-wise. What kind of talented, ambitious coach would want to work for him as an assistant? Not many, I bet.

    .
  30. Bill's Girl

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    That is sort of my point that W hired people who had been there and done that....
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