"Making the Leap": Jamie Collins

[james87654]

I was thinking more about some of Rosenthal's statements. These in particular came to mind:



I think that BB's thinking about what kind of defensive players best fit "this era" of pass-first offenses and offense-friendly rules has been evolving. Collins in 2013 and Dominique Easley this year are both guys whose skill sets are ideally suited to a multi-front hybrid defense to combat the modern passing game, and both are guys who BB probably would have passed up in the past; their selections signify that BB has moved away from his old prototype. The model of the kind of defensive player BB is looking for is changing - both Collins and Easley are "a new sort of prototype", as was Chandler Jones in 2012 - the "right players for this era" - and their selection in consecutive years is significant. In 2009 BB was still rooted in a traditional 2-gapping 3-4 defense. In 2010 he took guys like Jermaine Cunningham and Brandon Spikes who fit that model, passing up some talented 4-3 DEs like Carlos Dunlap and Greg Hardy and some faster, more mobile LBs like Sean Lee, Daryl Washington and Navorro Bowman. In 2012 the Pats took a 4-3 DE in Jones and also looked hard at smaller and faster LBs like Lavonte Davis and Bobby Wagner, but BB still ended up taking a bigger LB in Dont'a Hightower. I think the Collins and Easley picks signify that BB has really moved away from the old model towards more mobile and versatile defenders. I'm guessing that Ryan Shazier would have gotten serious consideration if he had slipped to the end of the 1st round. I'm also guessing that we'll see BB look at more and more guys who don't fit into the old mold.

well articulated....and i agree....and im glad BB finally came around to this realization

 

[patfanken]

I w tas thinking more about some of Rosenthal's statements. These in particular came to mind:
...... but BB still ended up taking a bigger LB in Dont'a Hightower. I think the Collins and Easley picks signify that BB has really moved away from the old model towards more mobile and versatile defenders. I'm guessing that Ryan Shazier would have gotten serious consideration if he had slipped to the end of the 1st round. I'm also guessing that we'll see BB look at more and more guyswho don't fit into the old mold.

Mayo, I strongly agree with most of your premise in your post, I have to take exception with the comment above. I doubt very much that Hightower was some kind of "throwback selection" by BB. Any comparison between he and Spikes athletically is an illusion. IIRC Hightower's combine stats were a lot closer to Bobby Wagner's than to Spikes. Didn't Dante run a 4.67 40?. I know he's not viewed as a lithe and agile "hybrid LB". But Hightower isn't exactly slow either. IIRC Spikes came into the .league at running a 5.0. That's a big difference.

BTW- I'm not a Hightower apologist. I was one of the first to complain about a lack of explosiveness from him in his rookie year. I thought last years solid if unspectacular performance can be attributed to the bizarre circumstances he had to deal with, given all the injuries. This year will tell whether BB missed with that pick.

Also keep in mind, when I say "missed". I don't wan to give the impression that Hightower could be considered a bust. Far from it. At worst Hightower has already shown that he is a solid NFL starting LB. And if that's all he winds up being, you can't call it a bust pick. However given the fact BB gave away draft picks to move up to get him, it is fair to want a bit more than merely a solid NFL starter.

Some other comments based on this excellent thread that struck a nerve with me.

1. BB is a 3-4 coach. Never forget it. When the rules and game changed BB was forced to change to a 4-3 by the demands of his roster and the need to provide instant pressure up the middle. There is a lot to be said for playing a 3-4. In an era where the best method of slowing down today's high flying, fast paced, sophisticated offenses is to confuse them into making mistakes, the 3-4 is much better at hiding the front 7's intentions than the 4-3. So as position flexible guys like Collins, Easly, Hightower, Mayo, Ninko, CJ, etc, develop and improve, don't be surprised to see BB using the 3-4 more than he has in recent years. Granted its likely to be a more aggressive version than the 2 gap we saw in the 200's, but it will be a 3-4

2. One thing I know for certain. As defenses continue to evolve in faster, more athletic and SMALLER versions of themselves, there WILL come a Tipping pooint when some "innovative" offensive "genius" will put 2 RB's back in the backfield and run the damned ball down these hyprid D's throats. . It's just a matter of time. Everything in football is cyclical.

 

[mayoclinic]

Mayo, I strongly agree with most of your premise in your post, I have to take exception with the comment above. I doubt very much that Hightower was some kind of "throwback selection" by BB. Any comparison between he and Spikes athletically is an illusion. IIRC Hightower's combine stats were a lot closer to Bobby Wagner's than to Spikes. Didn't Dante run a 4.67 40?. I know he's not viewed as a lithe and agile "hybrid LB". But Hightower isn't exactly slow either. IIRC Spikes came into the .league at running a 5.0. That's a big difference.

BTW- I'm not a Hightower apologist. I was one of the first to complain about a lack of explosiveness from him in his rookie year. I thought last years solid if unspectacular performance can be attributed to the bizarre circumstances he had to deal with, given all the injuries. This year will tell whether BB missed with that pick.

Also keep in mind, when I say "missed". I don't wan to give the impression that Hightower could be considered a bust. Far from it. At worst Hightower has already shown that he is a solid NFL starting LB. And if that's all he winds up being, you can't call it a bust pick. However given the fact BB gave away draft picks to move up to get him, it is fair to want a bit more than merely a solid NFL starter.

Ken, we've discussed this one before. I know you're bullish on Hightower - more so than I am, certainly - and I respect your point of view. I don't dislike him or consider him a "bust", but I still don't fully understand how or where he fits. I'm hoping that this year - which I consider a key year for him to show what he can do and justify a second contract and/or a 5th year extension - will answer a lot of questions.

As I've said elsewhere, Hightower has excellent linear speed and explosiveness (4.62 40 and 1.58 10-split at 265# at the 2012 Combine) but absolutely horrible lateral mobility and agility. His 4.64 SS and 7.55 3C compared poorly with Brandon Spikes' (who had terrible linear speed but more lateral movement and agility skills than Hightower - a 5.05 40 but a 6.97 3C) and were worse than those of many offensive linemen, including Nate Solder, Logan Mankins and Sebastian Vollmer. You can't possibly compare his athletic skills to those of Bobby Wagner (4.46 40, 4.28 SS, 7.10 3C, 39.5" VJ, 11" BJ - much more similar to Jamie Collins' numbers). I see him as mainly a "downhill" or "forward" player who has decent instincts and ability to drop into a zone, but who is totally outclassed if asked to match up individually with offensive skill players. Again, we'll just have to disagree.

Some other comments based on this excellent thread that struck a nerve with me.

1. BB is a 3-4 coach. Never forget it. When the rules and game changed BB was forced to change to a 4-3 by the demands of his roster and the need to provide instant pressure up the middle. There is a lot to be said for playing a 3-4. In an era where the best method of slowing down today's high flying, fast paced, sophisticated offenses is to confuse them into making mistakes, the 3-4 is much better at hiding the front 7's intentions than the 4-3. So as position flexible guys like Collins, Easly, Hightower, Mayo, Ninko, CJ, etc, develop and improve, don't be surprised to see BB using the 3-4 more than he has in recent years. Granted its likely to be a more aggressive version than the 2 gap we saw in the 200's, but it will be a 3-4.

I've got to disagree with you here on both counts. First, BB has his roots in many different coaching systems, not just the 3-4. As Jene Bremel wrote in a classic NY Times series on the evolution of NFL defensive schemes:

There’s no simple diagram or playbook quirk that defines Bill Belichick’s defense. Rather, it might be said that it’s the complete lack of one.

Belichick, in a very short span early in his career, was introduced to many different defensive schemes at the pro level. He was exposed to Maxie Baughan, who ran George Allen’s complex 4-3 scheme, whicht was full of pre-snap adjustments. He briefly coached with Fritz Shurmur, who would follow Allen (and others) as coordinators who frequently used nickel schemes as a base defense. He worked with Joe Collier, who turned a troublesome set of injuries to his front seven into Denver’s vaunted Orange Crush – maybe the original multiple-front scheme.

Those exposures came before he gained fame and respect under Bill Parcells and the true 3-4 in New England and New York.

The key to the success of Belichick’s style is flexibility of personnel. To be able to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 to a dime defense and all points in between requires versatility at nearly every position. Players have to be able to run and cover and hit. Linemen have to be strong enough to hold the point in the 3-4, but get upfield in a 4-3. Defensive backs have to be very good in zone coverage but competent in man coverage when needed. It requires special skills, but also an above-average football IQ. Compared with the base Dungy-Kiffin scheme, which probably started with as little as three or four fronts and a couple of zone coverages, Belichick’s hybrid is a maze meant to confuse and confound.

Guide to N.F.L. Defenses, Part 4: The 3-4 Front | Fifth Down Blog

Just because BB is best known for his 3-4 influence under Parcells doesn't mean that he doesn't have roots in many different schemes, and that he won't adopt and adapt whatever works. He is not a philosophical purist.

I expect to see a "multiple" defense that switches between 3, 4, 5 and even 6 man fronts at times, with ameboid sets mixed in. Flexibility of personnel will allow him to do a lot of things. But I strongly disagree that BB is a "3-4 coach" and that we will see the 3-4 as a predominant base defense. It will be mixed in plenty, but it will be disguised and will merge into other schemes.

 

[doesntmatter1]

I would like to hop in this conversation real quick. From day one I have seen Hightower and Ninko as virtually the same player. Hightower is slightly more athletic and is a better open field tackler due to his longer arms. Even though Ninko showed pretty good lb skills, coverage in particular, he still settled in at de and that is where I believe Hightower will eventually make a name for himself at.

Now I believe expectations on Easley should be lowered. For years league wide, rookie dt usually do not have the strength of nfl veterans. I somewhat expect Chris Jones and even Vellano to be ahead of him considering they have had an entire offseason to get bigger and stronger.

Lastly, Collins. I am excited to hear that he is bigger. As awesome as he was last year, he still seemed to lack some power. Collins brings the coverage ability that I have been begging for to our lb group. I am also excited to see what Gordon and Anderson bring to the table. Gordon physically looks the part and Anderson might thrive here. I watched a few Bears games and they were super undisciplined in run support but he was stronger than I expected and his zone coverage was better than what I usually see from our guys for the last few years.

 

[supafly]

I've never fully understood the Hightower pick. On the one hand, I can understand his leadership and versatility appealing to BB. OTOH, he really fits best in a 3-4 scheme, and I'm just not sure that he is mobile enough to excel in a "modern era" multi-front hybrid defense. He has good straight line speed but terrible lateral movement and agility. I'm still not sure at all that he fits as a LB - certainly not at 270#. I'd like to see him either slim down, or move up on the DL more. I think that BB still had one foot in the old prototype when he drafted Hightower. Regardless, that's one pick that I personally wish we had back.

It's difficult for me not to agree with your thoughts here. While we're all still optimistic on Hightower's potential, I don't see him as a great fit--at least in his first 2 years anyway.

 

[PatFanCraig]

This has turned into a great discussion. I believe bill prefers the 3-4 as his base but has and will always mix up his formations. I also never liked the Hightower pick. We had big LBs to do the dirty work in a 3-4 and set the edge and middle for the tacklers.yeah Hightower ran a 4.65 or whatever but every scout agreed he wasn't explosive nor play to that speed. For his size he isn't even a big hitter because he doesn't generate any explosion. I never understood the pick at the time because this is a passing league and fact remains Several LBs selected after Hightower are outperforming him and established themselves as difference makers/consistent playmakers. Hightower has not distinguished himself yet and there are more excuses for his play than production after 2 seasons. That said coupled withThe fact we traded up in the first round for him makes him a partial bust so far. He was selected as much for being coached up by Saban as he was for pure talent. If you can knock Bills drafting for one thing, its he passes on superior talent for a player already partially coached up and Hightower is a posterboy example. That's good he was NFL ready week one but by the end of the season it bites him in the *** because the superior/explosive talent begins to standout and make a big impact like Wagner,Kendricks and Burfict while his NFL ready guy is still just playing a role. Ands that's all he (not just hightower)will ever be while the raw talent is making an impact and going to pro bowls.

Bill benched Buchhanan, a player who showed some pretty good pass rush talent in favor of a retired has been because he had Problems setting the edge. That's rediculous, he should have worked with him. Coach him on edge setting and challenge him to get stronger while maintaining his explosion. Its called rookie growing pains and coaching up. All teams that recently won a Superbowl have coached up young raw talent.Besides if your going to draft big slow LBs design schemes they do some dirty work in and help out with the run. After all they were drafted for run defense and they may as well help out when pass rushers have problems setting the edge. If hightower is useless in chasing and covering he may as well be schemed into helping with dirty work in run containment while we develop some explosive edge rushers. I'm not totally down on Hightower, he is to big to be an explosive mover which is a requirement for elite LBs. There are no elite 270 lb linebackers around the NFL. Not counting 3-4 rush olbs of course. Matter of fact many are barely 240. As long as DLine does its job a lb can thrive at 230 and many do. If High tower can play at 250-255 and develop half the agility and explosion of Wagner or David, we would have a destroyer. With the extra burst he would actually become a feared striker. Hightower has said he doesn't like chasing around guys like Vereen. Most any lb weighing 270 would have similar issues. Including David,Wagner,Bowman. So maybe if he played closer to typical lb weight he could thrive. So Hightower isn't a bust yet. I'm confident he could be a beast at 250 or so. I don't think he would ever be an impact passrusher, he doesn't have the burst/agility, especially at 270+.

We should give Buchanan/Moore every opportunity to blossom as they will do with Easley. Bringing hasbeen's in from retirement might help win a game in the regular season but its not going to win a championship. Developing a feared passrusher opposite Chandler Jones will.

 

[PatFanCraig]

I agree supafly, at this point this is a passing league where teams throw often on first/second down. Makes him a liability but he can improve if he makes commitment.

 

[supafly]

Bill benched Buchhanan, a player who showed some pretty good pass rush talent in favor of a retired has been because he had Problems setting the edge. That's rediculous, he should have worked with him. Coach him on edge setting and challenge him to get stronger while maintaining his explosion. Its called rookie growing pains and coaching up. All teams that recently won a Superbowl have coached up young raw talent.

I agree with you that it's been a great discussion, Craig. I'm guessing that Buchanon just wasn't showing enough of what Belichick needed due to his poor attempts at setting the edge in run support. Hopefully, that will be addressed and improved upon.

 

[PatFanCraig]

I hear Collins looks bigger this year. Is that true? Because That will help if he is to make a pass rush impact. We know he can cover but this defense needs pass rush to pair with our secondary. If the defense is to make the leap to dominant status somebody needs to step up and make an impact because as it stands there isn't an established feared pass rusher outside Jones whom can improve still himself. If he doesn't make the leap then it's necessary somebody steps up to help Jones. We certainty have candidates who have the talent but they have to perform. Or else seasons pass rush returns. That's why I'm all for Buchanan/Moore getting snaps. Buchanan and Moore growing into their frame is very important for pass rush impact as well as setting the edge to get on the field. As much as I like Easley I can't believe we didn't add Melton. He is a proven commodity at exactly what we are hoping Easley becomes. Its not like he broke the bank either.

 

[Ivan]

I thinks hey are moving towards a more attacking and athletic defense overall and they have added some exceptional talent to achieve that, and I agree that Hightower is more suited to going forward than laterally, but I also feel the reason he was taken was more about his football IQ, desire, and overall quality as a player than his 3 cones. I still believe it was a really good pick and will show it this season. I see Hightower as the kind if player who relies upon instincts for his best play, and like Bruschi he will play faster and better the more he gets it. I also remember the way people viewed players like McGinest and Law and took shots at them early in their careers, and like many others that get knocked early on go on to have stellar careers.

 

[PatFanCraig]

I hope so Ivan. But whenever a players sub par play has to be defended and excused so much its cause for concern. If he. Can play at 250-255 and increase his agility/burst he could be a wrecking ball. His 10 yrd split was good for a 270+ lb. Most great explosive LBs are barely 240 soaked. The fact that he can even function at lb at 270+ is a testament to his movement skill.if David/Bowman/Willis/Wagner were that big how well could they move. If he played at 250-255 his movement skill/burst would be similar to those guys but with his frame he would be a wrecking ball. There are no elite 270+ pound mlb's. It simply hampers his burst/movement skills.If he played closer to prototype weight I'm confident he becomes an impact player given his instincts.

 

[rochrist]

Bill benched Buchhanan, a player who showed some pretty good pass rush talent in favor of a retired has been because he had Problems setting the edge. That's rediculous, he should have worked with him. Coach him on edge setting and challenge him to get stronger while maintaining his explosion. Its called rookie growing pains and coaching up. All teams that recently won a Superbowl have coached up young raw talent.

What makes you think he wasn't doing just that? The thing is, the Pats aren't one of the also-ran teams that can just afford to throw 'young raw talent' out there and live with the growing pains even if it costs them games. This is a team playing for the championship every year. A rookie has to undergo his growing pains on the practice field. If he's repeatedly failing at some part of his job, Bill won't play him, it's as simple as that.

 

[PatFanCraig]

What makes you think he wasn't doing just that? The thing is, the Pats aren't one of the also-ran teams that can just afford to throw 'young raw talent' out there and live with the growing pains even if it costs them games. This is a team playing for the championship every year. A rookie has to undergo his growing pains on the practice field. If he's repeatedly failing at some part of his job, Bill won't play him, it's as simple as that.

That's the whole point. We have some holes on this team. Those holes are significant because its key positions in this ever growing passing league that has cost us a super bowl or 2. That being our pass rush has been anemic especially deep in the playoffs when the cream puff teams disappear. To take the next step we need an impact pass rusher emerge among other things. We have some explosive athletic young talent that has good shot of helping us. The playoffs is what counts. What good is going 14-2 in the regular season then go into the playoffs with glaring weaknesses and get kicked out if the playoffs like a drunk in a bar that lacks the motor skills to function properly. Wouldn't you rather go 11-5 and develop an impact passrusher and deep threat WR along the way. So that you enter the playoffs with the fuel to make a championship run. Rather than go 14-2 by rotating hBuchanan and role players just to get our tails kicked by some 10-6 team that developed their impact player's/passrushers/Big play threats. Buchanan showed some real pass rush skills. He was at Illinois with first round pick Whitney Mercilus who led division 1 in sacks. Yet Illinois coaches said Mercilus had the production but Buchanan was the absolute terror on defense. Offenses feared Mercilus and all his sacks but after they got on the field Buchanan was the one that struck fear in the qb and OLine. I would like to see if he can step. Up into an impact passrusher. Zach Moore is another I would like to see get up to speed. Coaching really needs to push and challenge him because he is the most gifted of this years mid round developmental passrushers. He didn't get division 1 training for the combine yet ran a 4.75 40, broad jumped over10 feet and nearly 36" vertical at 275LBs! First round WR Benjamin didn't show that kind of lower body explosion. Could you imagine if he got division 1 coaching and training what his performance could be. If he played in the SEC or PAC 12 he may have been a top15 pick. This is the most explosive crop of young talent we had since parcels era. Its exciting to see some of these guys become NFL impact players. Because they are the ones that can get us over that obstacle we keep tripping over in the playoffs,not some has beens role players. And Collins's leads the party! But by seasons end anybody could take the spotlight leading the party like Easley,Buchanan, Moore,Ryan,Dobson,KT,Boyce. This is little off subject here but I like our young wr talent. I would rather trade a mid round pick for one more young talented developmental wr like Denarius Moore than Andre Johnson. I figure out of Dobson,KT,Boyce,Moore at least a couple of those guys are making the leap to impact WR by playoff time.

THEN when our offense is #1-2 there can be no argument for Manning when Brady is having a shootout with Manning with young WRs he developed!

 

[Joker]

so..I take it you are firmly in the "I Know More and Am Better At Coaching An NFL Team Than Bill Belechick" camp. The good news is you will find plenty of company and friends here.

 

[Danger Zone]

so..I take it you are firmly in the "I Know More and Am Better At Coaching An NFL Team Than Bill Belechick" camp. The good news is you will find plenty of company and friends here.

I actually really admire people like Deus (when he's not being dismissive and patronizing) that have learned the X's and O's about football.

And I understand perfectly well how annoying it must be to them for outraged homers to constantly pull out the Belichick knows best argument.. and double so when the "sheep" think it's the end-all to the conversation. It's not.

That said, some of our football experts are also their own worst enemies. At some point, they just have to accept the fact that yes, Belichick might know his team and the NFL better than they do.

Or at least they should acknowledge it once in a while. A touch of humility in critiquing Belichick would deflect about 80% of the homer outrage or so I'd imagine. I know it would deflect 99% of mine.

And now to compare football with chess.

Which like my football, I play pretty casually. Enough though to understand that chess is a very hierarchal "sport". It's a predatory food-chain and one that I personally imagine is very similar to the game of football.

Once a person has achieved a certain Tier of knowledge and skill, they will win and lose games to their peers . They will almost always win when playing people in the Tiers below them. And they will almost always lose when playing people in the Tiers above them. While they have taken their game to a whole new level, so haven't the people in the Tiers above them.

Quoted from: http://www.chess.com/article/view/ratings

• 1200-1399 = 'D' player - usually a beginner;
• 1400-1599 = 'C' player - average club or tournament player, most people can achieve this level if they work at it;
• 1600 - 1799 = 'B' player - consistently above average;
• 1800-1999 = 'A' player - strong club player, takes the game far too seriously!, has lots of opening knowledge;
• 2000-2199 = 'Expert' - extremely strong, consistent player with the possibility of achieving Master rating, may have real talent;
• 2200-2399 = 'Master' - strongest amateur rank, hasn't quite got the hang of things yet but maybe one day he/she will wake up.

International professional players have two ranks:

• 2400-2499 = 'International Master' - weakest professional rank; strong, experienced international player, eats Masters for breakfast;
• 2500+ = 'Grandmaster' - eats IMs for breakfast, lunch and dinner, a star in the firmament of Caissa, a chess genius who thinks nothing of playing 20 and 30 board simultaneously against Experts and Masters and is disappointed if he/she doesn't win every game, capable of playing 10-20 blindfold games at the same time, and winning, etc. etc, in short, an all around bricks and mortar, brass bound b*st*rd of a player, but they do lose on occasion, sometimes to players with a much lower rating and computers are better than that these days.

Chess players at the Expert level can talk circles around the B C D type of player. They might be the biggest fish in their little pond, but they aren't swimming in professional waters. I don't imagine that even our most knowledgeable poster is yet a "Master" of football. Even if they are, I guarantee they are not verging on the professional ranks of IM's and GMs. As much as they understand the game at a different level than the rest of us, they are just as ignorant to the IMs and GMs as we are to them... maybe more so because its a very real trap that many experts and pundits fall into -believing they're capable of critiquing the Grandmasters of the game.

I can't imagine that being a headcoach in the NFL involves any less knowledge of the game of football than a chess professional does in the game of chess.

I personally am roughly a 1400 to 1500 rated player when I apply myself for a couple of weeks and shake the rust off. I admire people that are smarter than me and who have put in the time to become better than me. I really do. The same with football.

But all that said, everyone who posts here, no matter how knowledge of football you think you are, it wouldn't hurt to post with a little humility even if its acknowledge that yes, Belichick probably does know more about football than you.

Even if, yes, He is fallible too.

 

[Sciz]

That's the whole point. We have some holes on this team. Those holes are significant because its key positions in this ever growing passing league that has cost us a super bowl or 2. That being our pass rush has been anemic especially deep in the playoffs when the cream puff teams disappear. To take the next step we need an impact pass rusher emerge among other things. We have some explosive athletic young talent that has good shot of helping us. The playoffs is what counts. What good is going 14-2 in the regular season then go into the playoffs with glaring weaknesses and get kicked out if the playoffs like a drunk in a bar that lacks the motor skills to function properly. Wouldn't you rather go 11-5 and develop an impact passrusher and deep threat WR along the way. So that you enter the playoffs with the fuel to make a championship run. Rather than go 14-2 by rotating hBuchanan and role players just to get our tails kicked by some 10-6 team that developed their impact player's/passrushers/Big play threats. Buchanan showed some real pass rush skills. He was at Illinois with first round pick Whitney Mercilus who led division 1 in sacks. Yet Illinois coaches said Mercilus had the production but Buchanan was the absolute terror on defense. Offenses feared Mercilus and all his sacks but after they got on the field Buchanan was the one that struck fear in the qb and OLine. I would like to see if he can step. Up into an impact passrusher. Zach Moore is another I would like to see get up to speed. Coaching really needs to push and challenge him because he is the most gifted of this years mid round developmental passrushers. He didn't get division 1 training for the combine yet ran a 4.75 40, broad jumped over10 feet and nearly 36" vertical at 275LBs! First round WR Benjamin didn't show that kind of lower body explosion. Could you imagine if he got division 1 coaching and training what his performance could be. If he played in the SEC or PAC 12 he may have been a top15 pick. This is the most explosive crop of young talent we had since parcels era. Its exciting to see some of these guys become NFL impact players. Because they are the ones that can get us over that obstacle we keep tripping over in the playoffs,not some has beens role players. And Collins's leads the party! But by seasons end anybody could take the spotlight leading the party like Easley,Buchanan, Moore,Ryan,Dobson,KT,Boyce. This is little off subject here but I like our young wr talent. I would rather trade a mid round pick for one more young talented developmental wr like Denarius Moore than Andre Johnson. I figure out of Dobson,KT,Boyce,Moore at least a couple of those guys are making the leap to impact WR by playoff time.

THEN when our offense is #1-2 there can be no argument for Manning when Brady is having a shootout with Manning with young WRs he developed!

1. Which playoff teams are intentionally putting worse players on the field during the regular season?

2. What is a player supposed to get out of 20 snaps in a game that he couldn't get out of 3 practices in a week?

 

[Joker]

these ADHD crybaby screeds are ridiculous. The Pats suck because they go 12-4 but get killed in the playoffs by Denver. This because BB doesn't play rooks full time. No mention of the TOTAL LOSS of interior defensive all pro linemen, all pro linebackers, all pro/all world TE, rookie WR's knocked out for the season because they get killed.

No, play Buchanan and we beat Denver and win the bowl!!! It's like some space alien just landed, watched a half a quarter of football and now wants to be world leader. The preseason can't get here fast enough.

 

[Galeb]

Hopefully he'll be making the Lambeau leap next February.

 

[BradyFTW!]

That's the whole point. We have some holes on this team. Those holes are significant because its key positions in this ever growing passing league that has cost us a super bowl or 2. That being our pass rush has been anemic especially deep in the playoffs when the cream puff teams disappear. To take the next step we need an impact pass rusher emerge among other things. We have some explosive athletic young talent that has good shot of helping us. The playoffs is what counts. What good is going 14-2 in the regular season then go into the playoffs with glaring weaknesses and get kicked out if the playoffs like a drunk in a bar that lacks the motor skills to function properly. Wouldn't you rather go 11-5 and develop an impact passrusher and deep threat WR along the way. So that you enter the playoffs with the fuel to make a championship run. Rather than go 14-2 by rotating hBuchanan and role players just to get our tails kicked by some 10-6 team that developed their impact player's/passrushers/Big play threats. Buchanan showed some real pass rush skills. He was at Illinois with first round pick Whitney Mercilus who led division 1 in sacks. Yet Illinois coaches said Mercilus had the production but Buchanan was the absolute terror on defense. Offenses feared Mercilus and all his sacks but after they got on the field Buchanan was the one that struck fear in the qb and OLine. I would like to see if he can step. Up into an impact passrusher. Zach Moore is another I would like to see get up to speed. Coaching really needs to push and challenge him because he is the most gifted of this years mid round developmental passrushers. He didn't get division 1 training for the combine yet ran a 4.75 40, broad jumped over10 feet and nearly 36" vertical at 275LBs! First round WR Benjamin didn't show that kind of lower body explosion. Could you imagine if he got division 1 coaching and training what his performance could be. If he played in the SEC or PAC 12 he may have been a top15 pick. This is the most explosive crop of young talent we had since parcels era. Its exciting to see some of these guys become NFL impact players. Because they are the ones that can get us over that obstacle we keep tripping over in the playoffs,not some has beens role players. And Collins's leads the party! But by seasons end anybody could take the spotlight leading the party like Easley,Buchanan, Moore,Ryan,Dobson,KT,Boyce. This is little off subject here but I like our young wr talent. I would rather trade a mid round pick for one more young talented developmental wr like Denarius Moore than Andre Johnson. I figure out of Dobson,KT,Boyce,Moore at least a couple of those guys are making the leap to impact WR by playoff time.

THEN when our offense is #1-2 there can be no argument for Manning when Brady is having a shootout with Manning with young WRs he developed!

I think there's just a philosophical difference re: how to develop players. If Buchanan was good enough to be on the field, he would be showing it on the practice field. In fact, I'd argue that he was on the field too much. He, probably more than anyone else, lost us the Jets game. If the Pats had won that game, they'd be the #1 seed in the AFCWith the #1 seed, who knows how the playoffs go. If the AFCCG is being played in New England, and ball bounces a little differently, suddenly we're playing the 49ers in the Super Bowl, and who knows what happens at that point.

Belichick absolutely has shown a willingness to stick with young guys and endure their mistakes. Harmon, Collins, Dobson, Buchanan, and Thompkins all got significant playing time down the stretch last season. Jones, Hightower, and Wilson the year before. But sometimes, a young guy just isn't ready, and by leaving him on the field you cost your team games. Which means you cost them playoff seeding, and a chance to make it to the Super Bowl.

Wilson and Buchanan are probably the two best examples of guys who were given a chance to succeed on the field, but who failed in a big way instead. So now they have to earn their way back onto the field, and that's something that they do by practicing well and showing that they deserve to be there. And on top of that, their failures make it clear that it's on the coaching staff to pinpoint where they're failing, fix it, and get them back onto the field in whatever capacity they're good for. This is one thing that, IMO, the Pats do as well as anyone. They identify limited roles where young guys can contribute, put them on the field in those roles, and allow them to expand their responsibilities very slowly over the course of their first couple of seasons, creating a manageable growth in responsibilities that keep them from being overwhelmed.

This, IMO, is absolutely the correct way to do it. Putting a worse player on the field in a role that he hasn't earned in hopes that he grows into it will just give you overmatched players, a losing culture, and a worse team on the field. Even if that wasn't the case, I'd argue that putting a player out there in a role that he can't yet handle is more likely to ruin him than make him better.

 

[PatFanCraig]

1. Which playoff teams are intentionally putting worse players on the field during the regular season?

2. What is a player supposed to get out of 20 snaps in a game that he couldn't get out of 3 practices in a week?

To answer your first question, who said intentionally play worse players? I just said accept thegrowing pains of a young talent whom you know is going to reward you. Of course you have to see more good than bad. Most of all you have to know you will be rewarded come playoff time when it really counts. Players of key positions in this passing league are players who reward coaches the most for accepting some growing pains like qbs/passrushers/WRs/Corners. And most of all you have to see big rewards. A coach may allow a young Patrick peterson to man up Megatron. Who would allow Tavon Wilson man up Megatron for a whole game. What's the point in that? Or let Jake Bequette play a whole game and fail to set the edge. But Buchanan or Collins/Moore/Easley a coach will allow some bad plays to get them up to speed in all area's of the game while perfecting his pass rush arsenal he's coached on. What could be the benefit of playing Andre carter who struggled himself and was useless rushing the passer. Because he knew the playbook? My point is Buchanan made far more positive plays than Andre Carter. He had 2 sacks in 3 games one of which he was double blocked which included highly respected pro bowl LT D'brickashaw Ferguson. IMO opinion that's encouraging and deserving of some snaps. My only issue is he didn't play at all due to some mistakes in the scheme and was in the doghouse. But Andre Carter got snaps because he knew the scheme yet still struggled. All I'm saying is if somebody is going to struggle at times I would rather it be the guy who can get better and can at least rush the qb. Just a thought that's all.

There's nothing like the experience in a real game.

so..I take it you are firmly in the "I Know More and Am Better At Coaching An NFL Team Than Bill Belechick" camp. The good news is you will find plenty of company and friends here.

Of course, what's the fun in being a fan if you don't know more than the coach. Boring just agreeing with the coach all the time.