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Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by mgteich, Jan 10, 2010.

  1. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Let us presume that we bring back all that we can. We still will need two OG's, 3 WR's, and an OLB.

    My hope is that we use free agency to sign the wide receivers, the OLB and a replacement for any of the free agents below that we don't re-sign. That will leave us with only two MUSTS for the draft: two OG's.

    Banta-Cain (his extension hasn't been made official)
    Wilfork
    Bodden
    Burgess
    Green
    Watson
    Faulk
    Mankins (RFA)
    Gostkowsksi (RFA)
    Woods (RFA)
  2. DocE

    DocE Rookie

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    Your presumption is that you just draft a rookie and he's a starter. I would prefer to draft two players, expecting the best to start this year and the the other to be groomed for next year. I guess we're not used to drafting with such a wide open hole on the roster.

    If we bring back everyone, why would we need 2 OG's? Even if brining back everyone excludes Neal due to retirement, wouldn't the need at OG sit at one? The Pats would have Mankins, Ohrnberger, Connolly, and Wendell as guard options going in to '10. Most teams carry 7-8 lineman on the gameday roster, so at least one backup needs to have position versatility (ex T/G or G/C). I find it unlikely (though not impossible) that the Patriots would see a need for 2 more guards if every current OL not named Neal returned. I don't doubt that there could be 2 additions at OG, just that their wouldn't be a glaring need in this scenario.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2010
  3. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Lets consider Mankins:
    -- A CBA agreement appears unlikely, so he's an RFA.
    -- As an RFA he's low cost, but after 2010 he's a UFA.
    -- As a UFA, two time Pro Bowl Guard, he's going to be expensive.
    -- According to the Franchise/Transition Tag projection thread the top Guards pulled down $7M+ for one year.

    So does BB keep Mankins one more season and lose him to Free Agency in 2011? Or does he consider reasonable trade offers, even shop him a little, and use the chance for a 1st or 2nd round pick in this deep draft class?
    -- Is there an option to Mankins? Yes, Light is under contract and could slide inside to LG with Vollmer on the edge. Or BB could pick up another older vet in FA, and of course there's always the draft.
    -- Why might teams bid for Mankins instead of drafting a Guard? Guard and Center are very shallow in this draft, Tackle has pretty good depth, but teams looking for a top Guard may be willing to pay for a proven vet like Mankins and let NE transition a Tackle the way they did Mankins.
  4. Hebeill

    Hebeill Rookie

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    IMHO A pass rusher or two is a decided need.
  5. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not sure we need 2 OG's in this draft. I don't see any reason why we can't tender Mankins as an RFA and tag him next year as a UFA, keeping him for 2 years. Plus, we may be able to keep Neal for one more year as a part time starter at OG. I think getting one stud OG this year and one next year (draft or FA) may be sufficient. Plus, that would give some time to see if Ohrnberger actually develops, or if he's just a career backup at best.
  6. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A team can't "shop" an RFA until he signs the tender.

    All the more reason for the Patriots to try and sign Mankins long-term.
  7. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Unfortunately, the pickings are slim in free agency regarding centers and guards as well.

    The big name of ILBers is Dansby since the Cardinals can't afford to franchise him as a QB.

    OLBs, there are a plethora of quality UFA:
    Kampman, Danny Clark, Angelo Crowell, Scott Fujita, Jason Taylor, Chaun Thompson (who could be an ILB), just to name a few.


    WRs - Have been talked about Ad Nauseum..
  8. patsfan55

    patsfan55 Rookie

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    We will not win a Super Bowl with Burgess, Banta-Cain, and Woods as our primary edge defenders. We need upgrades on the outside.
  9. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    I hope the Patriots don't play footsey with Jason Taylor again.

    We will romance him only to have him jilt us again.
  10. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    DeBruinz indicates that the free agent class is weak at guard. A team
    just might consider giving up a third and a first round pick for Mankins.
    The interested team could trade down to acquire a late first round
    pick.
  11. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sure they can, they just can't trade him - it gives him a little control over where he winds up and whether the new home offers him a suitable long term deal.



    P'haps, but at $6M+ annually, he'll be spendy - might better draft another Tackle to Guard conversion project at a fraction of the cost.
  12. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Remember a little something about BB making a big stink about the fact that Peppers hadn't signed his tender? Could you imagine that not blowing up in his face if he tried it?

    At least two of Light, Koppen, Neal, and Kaczur are likely to be gone within two years anyways, so I think they can afford to spend that much on Mankins.
  13. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    NFL rules specifically prohibit such tactics. In order to make a tender/franchise offer, you must use your original pick or a higher pick; you cannot use a lower pick. (So, for example, if Oakland wanted to sign Mankins or any other RFA, they'd have to cough up their first and their third; they can't use the Patriots' third.)
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2010
  14. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If a team want to give a 1st and a 3rd, then we will use the 1st to draft a guard and our forst or first second to draft another guard.

  15. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    I would waive G'Bye to Burgess, Green & Woods.

    There are more than 2 MUSTs for the draft:
    WR - more than 1, plus a couple of FAs
    OC - I'm sick of seeing the small, weak Koppen being destroyed at the POA
    RG - unless Kaczur slides there; OBurger, Bustey & Connelly are junk
    DE - and not just a former DT; I mean a real DE with real pass-rushing skills
    OLB - see WR above
    SILB - Guyton absolutely sux; Junior was our best run-stopper
    CB - to ensure that Wheatley & Wilhite never see the field again
  16. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You also presume unlimited resources. You list 9 needs for the draft and mention that in addition you want WR's and OLB's from free agency. I know you understand that we cannot count on meeting these needs with 6th and 7th rounders, so we are talking about mneeting nine needs with 5 picks. A team CANNOT have nine musts and four picks.

    It is much better to go into the draft with one or two musts and a wish list. I do exagerrate, but the musts for this draft will be OG and DE.

  17. everlong

    everlong Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    I hope they use one of their sixth or seventh rounders on a punter.
  18. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree. However, Hanson has had competition in camp before. He just beats them out for the roster spot every year.

  19. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    The beauty of the 1st and 3rd round pick situation is that the Pats can MATCH whatever offer Mankins gets..

    I don't believe its going to be an issue as I believe he and Wilfork will get long term extensions ala Warren.
  20. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Why do you insist on polluting the board with your garbage? Seriously. How do you know that Orhnberger, Bussey and Connolly are junk? Connolly actually played pretty well, but he is a JAG. A JAG is not junk. The other two are rookies... How could you evaluate them with the limited playing time they had?

    DE - What kind of formation do you want the guy to play in? 4-3 or 3-4? A 4-3 DE is different than a 3-4 DE. 3-4 2 Gap DEs do NOT rush the passer on a regular basis. They get the sacks if they are there. Otherwise, their job is to control 2 gaps so the LBers can make plays..

    Guyton isn't a SILB. Whatever made you think that he was is beyond me. He's more of a WILB behind Mayo.

    WR - the pats don't need to bring in 3 more WR... they don't have the roster slots for them.
  21. everlong

    everlong Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Obviously it has to be one of those cases where Bellichick values hang time and location over distance but like Walter before him he's stayed around much longer than he should have. I remember Sauerbrun boming a 65+ yarder that got returned if not the distance deep into Patriots territory and BB going off on him on the sidelines in a fashion you don't often see from him.
  22. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Franchise Tag vs RFA - a Carolina controlled player vs a NE controlled player.

    The best way to work out a trade is for the player to sign the tag, but there's nothing in the rules to prevent NE from discussing trade possibilities with another team - they do have his rights.
    A consideration in the process.
  23. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why would the number of wide receivers brought in equal the number of roster spots available? I think that at least three wide receivers should be brought in. How many WR roster spots do you think we have. Over the past decade, we have carried anywhere from 4 to 7 wide receivers. What is your magic numbers.

    For the 2010 season, we have Moss and Edelman. Aiken and Slater fill the two ST specialist spots. How many more rosters spots do YOU think should be allocated to receivers and where will these receivers competing for these roster spot come from?

    Understand that bringing in a receiver is no guarantee that this player will earn a roster spot. This is true for draftees and free agents.
    ======================
    As of now, I think that we have 2-4 open roster spots, with Stanback as one of the competitors for those spots. Do you diagree?


  24. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Pats carried 7 when they were light on corners and had Troy Brown lining up as the Nickel Corner...

    I see 5 or 6 receivers being on the squad/practice squad.

    Also, as a correction for you, the Pats have the following WRs for next season:

    Moss, Edelman, Aiken, Tate, Welker, and Slater. You've mentioned a severe injury to Tate, but you've provided no link to it. And the only link that Reiss has talks about an unspecified ligament injury to his opposite knee. No one knows what the actual injury was to Welker either. Yes, the rule of thumb is 9 months to 85% and 18 months to 100%, but that is not set in stone..

    I don't see the Pats drafting 2-3 WRs like some people are suggesting. I think they'll look at someone like Bryant or others who get cut over the next few weeks. Could they bring in some young UDFAs? Sure. Could they bring in some young street free agents? Sure.. But I don't see them bringing in more than one or two unless the injuries to Tate and Welker are worst case scenarios..
  25. CanadianPat'sFan

    CanadianPat'sFan Rookie

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    I believe that the Pats will look to keep Mankins at least for a year where they would be losing two of the starting guards from 2009 and before. I really think that BB will draft a guard with one of his second round picks (hey he did pretty good finding Volmer last year(. Having Kaczer or Light move to guard and Volmer take the other tackle would at least keep a vet OL to protect Brady. We would still have Orhnberger, Bussey and Connolly with a second rounder to push all three.


    Wilfork as everyone has said will be kept (product of Seymours loss) and Warren will be around but I believe Green will be let go. That leaves a need at DE which I think will be addressed during FA. Wright is very versatile and can play all three positions. I know Brace gets alot of criticism but I am willing to let him learn from Wilfork for another year as well as Pryor.


    I vote to keep Mankins, TBC, Bodden, Faulk and Gostkowsksi and let the rest of that list go and look to FA or the draft to fill the needs.
  26. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What you seem to be saying is that if Welker and Tate are expected to be ready start the season, that there is no real crisis at WR, and we shouldn't panic. I agree. However, since we have no access to the team doctors, we can jsut wait and see what Belichick does. If no free mid-level or higher free agents are brought in, I would say that Belichick is counting on welker for the start of the season.

    HOWEVER, I would not count on Tate, Aiken and Slater as the man to line up opposite Moss. I'm not sure whya this is Ok by you, especially given the possibility that Welker won't be there to start the season.

    How can it be a bad idea to bring in a couple of midlevel wide receiver free agents?

  27. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    1) How many picks do we have altogether, and do you think that any compensatory picks will be forthcoming?

    2) I generally use a position wish list to categorize the best players available at a given point during the draft; depending on whether any of these positions have already been filled during free agency or earlier in the draft, I can then determine which way to go. Now if Mankins is re-signed but Neal retires, would you still feel that OG is one of the 2 Must-Haves of the off-season? Esp. ahead of WR? Or even Center?
  28. Patriot Missile

    Patriot Missile Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I'd love to see Bryant in a Pat's uni. I wouldn't mind seeing Stallworth getting into game shape after he gets out of the slammer either. They are both capable #2 wr's.
  29. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    The pass rushing DE/OLB types are available in this draft. They will be there in the second round.

    There will also be plenty of WRs who can play as well.

    You can add to your stock of picks by trading Adalius Thomas, maybe Maroney who can be replaced by, say, Chester Taylor, or trading down from 22 to the top of the 2nd round.

    So, we do have many needs, but I think 2 of those needs (pass rushing and WR are critical). And I would not at all mind spending multiple picks on each of these 3 positions (DE, OLB, WR) in the first four rounds.

    This team needs to prepare for 2011 rather than 2010.
  30. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Golden Tate of Notre Dame has experience in a variation of our offense. Depending on how he runs the forty and the 3 cone, he could be a WR that can make an impact early.

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