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Lots of Place for Rookies

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mgteich, Apr 2, 2008.

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  1. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are at least 13 very good opportunities for a rookie.

    A rookie could easily win a spot at
    QB, FB, OG, TE
    or would you miss losing Eckel, Yates, Spach and/or one of Guiterrez/Cassel

    A rookie could easily win a spot at
    DE, ILB (2 spots), CB (3 spots), S
    or would you miss S. Thomas, Slaughter, Webster, L. Sanders, Richardson, Andrews or the free agent jag ILB we sign before the draft
    --------------------------

    And that doesn't even count the possibility of a rookie beating out Hochstein or Alexander
    ==================================================================


    OFFENSE (25)
    QB - 3 Tom Brady, Cassel, Gutierrez
    RB - 3 Faulk, Maroney, Morris
    FB - 2 Evans, Eckel
    C - 1 Koppen
    G - 4 Neal, Hochstein, Mankins, Yates
    OT - 4 Light, Kaczur, O'Callaghan, Britt
    WR - 5 Moss, Gaffney, Welker, Washington, Chad Jackson
    TE - 3 Watson, Dave Thomas, Spach

    DEFENSE (25)
    DE - 4 Warren, Green, Seymour, Santonio Thomas
    DT - 3 Wilfork, Le Kevin Smith, Wright
    OLB- 3 Vrabel, Adalius Thomas, Woods
    ILB- 5 Bruschi, Alexander, Slaughter, jag ILB to be signed, Izzo
    CB - 5 Hobbs, Bryant, Sanders, Webster, Richardson
    S - 5 Sanders, Harrison, Meriweather, Williams, Andrews/Ventrone/Aiken(this is a ST spot)

    SPECIALISTS (3)
    P - 1 Hanson
    K - 1 Gostkowski
    LS - 1 Paxton

    PRIMARY NEEDS:
    CB, ILB, ILB, TE
    To replace Samuel, Colvin, Seau, Brady
  2. PATRIOT64

    PATRIOT64 Rookie

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    You know despite my lack of like for Cassell who I may never be crazy about,I don't think the team will draft a QB this year.
  3. AdrianKlemm

    AdrianKlemm Rookie

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    It will be nice to hopefully get an infusion of young talent this year. Our previous few drafts have yielded a very low number of prospects, and the team needs to get a little younger.
  4. nashvillepatsfan

    nashvillepatsfan Rookie

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    please add punter to your list. i want a new punter.:mad:
  5. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    I agree...they din't draft one last year as well...BUT I think they will sign a UDFA...or nring in a vet...
  6. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Funny, I started a thread analyzing the roster saying it would be hard for rookies to win spots. But I'm coming to your side now. We haven't really re-stocked LB pre-draft the way I thought we would, telling me we will probably bring back Seau and or sign RFA Seward.

    So I agree with you now that there will be some roster spots. Which is a good thing, b/c there are a slew of players in the mid rounds that have the upside of turning into starters on this team, particularly on the offensive line.
  7. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Man, just looking at the current roster the defense definitely looks subpar. The holes left by Samuel, Seau (assuming he's done) and Colvin are pretty big, and Bruschi no longer is a force in the middle. The offense immediately upgrades with Dave Thomas and Sammy Morris returning, but we'll still need blocking help at tight end and youth in the OL. I wonder if rookies really can be counted on to pick up all this slack, which is considerable. I still think we need proven veteran help on the defense, unless some of the jags picked up so far in free agency pan out surprisingly well.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2008
  8. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    As far as I'm concerned, CB would be OK by me if the season started today, and thats not even considering the very deep CB class in the draft.

    I share some of your concerns at LB, but ultimately, I'm sure it will get worked out. People cite the Beisel/Brown disaster as a Belichick failure, but BB was blinsided by issues out of his control at LB, and its hard to put any blame on him or Pioli for that. Other than that season, when has BB gone into a season with a LB corps that wasn't ready to compete.

    I'm assuming we will sign both Seward and Seau, and we're adding them to the mix of Vrabel, Bruschi, AD, with AD offering the ability to play both ILB and OLB at a high level. If they draft an outside pass rushing force like Groves, then I would say they would have improved their LB unit from last season.
  9. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Excellent thread. I'm sick of the annual pre-draft, training camp bogus mantra about how stocked with depth and talent the team is, such that few if any rooks have a shot. Problem being that the core has aged and for one reason or another, sub-par draft picking and mistakes attempting to waive developmental guys onto the PS, we've not had a constant influx of sufficient quantity of young talent that has developed into the Bruschis of the 21st century. I'm very impresed with how the Colts lost starters on their D last year after winning the SB and contrary to expectations improved the unit with young starters from the draft.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2008
  10. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    Bill Polian is a bit of a s.o.b. but he is really good at drafting

    players and sifting thru the UDFAs and finding a few gems. In

    a supposedly bad draft year, all of his draft picks made the team

    last year and an undrafted rookie started in the defensive line.

    Polian believes in drafting and coaching the heck out of the

    rookies rather than signing free agents.
  11. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Unfortunately for us, this well-executed strategy of finding rooks who can play REDUCES their cap hit and lowers the age of their starters.
  12. Brady'sButtBoy

    Brady'sButtBoy Rookie

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    This is always an interesting question - Do the Pats have little room for rookies because the rest of the team is so talented?

    Considering how much the Pats win, it would be hard to argue with the formula they used in staffing the team. But isn't it legitimate to ask whether the Pat's drafting has been spotty in the middle and lower rounds and that is why they end signing Monty Beisels, Chad Browns and the array of so-so DBs that have wandered through Foxboro? It's cheaper to develop your own through the draft, and while BB obviously values experience, isn't talent the one thing you can't learn?

    An article recently mentioned the useful roles played in winning the SB by some of the Giant's second day picks like Tyree and Bradshaw, among others.

    My initial reaction was, yeah, the Giants can really draft when your team stinks to begin with and has more holes than aged swiss. But this thread makes me less sure of that position; maybe the Giants (and obviously the Colts) really do draft second tier players well, holes or no holes. And maybe the Pat's lack of youth and depth at LB and CB has been the result of so very few mid to late rounders finding a home here because Bioli selected poorly of late. I mean what impact have Alexander, Woods, and Andrews really had? Not much.

    I don't know...but it certainly seems like a fair question to raise.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2008
  13. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The biggest surprise to me is that there's a starting spot up for grabs. The Pats are usually careful to head into the draft without any yawning gaps -- Mankins is the only rookie in recent years who was clearly drafted with a starting role in mind (ok, Gostkowski). But as of April 3, the team is still down a starting linebacker. Innnteresting.
  14. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    There are two ways to acquire talent. The draft and UDFAs or signing
    veterans from other teams. If a teams decides to go along with rookies
    (Colts), a lot of tutoring is required and a couple of years may go by before
    the player is ready to contribute. On the other hand, teams who decide
    to sign mostly veteran players (Redskins) will find the cost very high. A
    player who has just completed his rookie contract (Samuel) can expect
    to receive top dollar for his services. This is why the Patriots sign a
    lot of 30 year old and not very many 25 year old players.

    With the fate of the CBA uncertain, I hope the Patriots can put a couple
    of good drafts back to back. This way they will have a supply of
    inexpensive talent if the salary cap expires.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2008
  15. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yup, Bill Polian is a genius whose team went 13-3 and seemingly improved defensively yet were one and done in the playoffs while all the Pats brain trust could manage was 16-0 before getting bounced in the closing minute of the Superbowl...

    Polian did what he did because he had to - nobody in their right mind wants to start the season with 9 draftees and 15 players who have never set foot on an NFL field rounding out their roster. He too finished the season with cap to spare he could roll over. But he also finished the season with 6 players on his roster who are the highest paid at their position, and the long term ramafications of that are never far from his consciousness. When one of them went down ($9M man Harrison) he had no ready answer beyond Manning versus lots of teams with no real QB. And the day two draft genius also had one 2006 FA signing and a costly (2nd round 2008) 2007 trade on defense who were eating up $12M in cap space from their couches (Simon after being cut and McFarland after being IR'd). He brought Dungy in in 2002 to coach up a Tampa 2 defense that would allow him to maintain his highly compensated core by utilizing day 2 draftees and UDFA's as his first line backups. Even at that according to the most recent Forbes analysis Indy was the only team who finished the season in the red revenue wise...

    Having won a ring the goal in Indy remains to field a division/regular season winning team that can put fannies in seats in a new taxpayer funded stadium winning their division consistently secured for them. The goals here are a little different, getting to and through the playoffs to the Superbowl. And the defensive scheme is a lot more difficult to run and therefore it's roster is more difficult/demanding to fill out. So to the level of expectation is a lot more difficult to fulfill - when fans here see 18-1 as somehow inferior to 13-4.

    That said, I too hope we can draft a punter since none was forthcoming in FA. And someone to light a fire under Gostkowski, too. And an explosive (perhaps dedicated out of the gate) kick/punt returner who projects as a developmental high end backup elsewhere on the roster. We could use an infusion of high ceiling developmental talent which is why as the draft approaches it bites to have 7 having lost 31. Really does make you hope they can trade back to the middle of the round and pick up additional picks and maybe yet plug a few more holes pre draft with the likes of a Seward and maybe even a Law so they can focus on best available talent early and take a few flyers on potential day 2 playmakers wherever they might stick. While there is a certain comfort level in having depth that's been in the system for a couple of years now, much of it appears to have tested out to have a pretty limited ceiling.

    I thought too it was interesting that this week the new more expansive BB addressed what happened to our offense in the Superbowl by saying he expects more teams to scheme to do that in the future. That would lead me to believe he may be looking at ways to counter that rather than standing pat on the assumption/rationalization our blocking was just experiencing an off night...

    As for the Giants, how's their depth at LB and CB? Do they even have a secondary? They won it on the strength of their DL play where a guy like Strahan is teetering on retirement while Osi is already talking holdout. Tyree had a career game...his two most significant catches were the result of poor coverage by a day two pick we developed into a multi-millionaire CB and dumb luck. In 5 years as a Giant he's had 54 catches for 650 yards and 4 TD. In 2007 Ahmad Bradshaw had 25 carries for 190 yards and 17 of those for 151 came in week 16 against Buffalo... How Belioli missed these two I'll never know...
  16. patfanmike

    patfanmike Rookie

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    It also takes a couple of years for our rookies to learn enough to start. We almost never (Mankins, Ghost) draft players expecting them to start. McGinnest (top 10 pick) didn't start as a rookie. I don't expect this year to be any different so our questions are: Where can a rookie get into the rotation? (LB and TE if he can catch). Where do we still have holes and need to sign FA's or RFA's? (LB LB). We can get by with our UFA CB's. We can't get by with our current group of LB's. Our season depends on upgrading our LB position. I hope BB will make some additional offers to RFA's.

    http://www.patriots.com/depthchart.cfm
  17. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You mean Belichick wasn't supposed to anticipate Tedy having a stroke and plan ahead accordingly? That's news to me.
  18. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    Not sure if there is as much room as you think. There is more room than the last 3 or 3 years though.

    Some of the spots yuo are saying can be won may have a core special teamer. Also some of the spots you are saying can be won by rookies arent won by the players you mention, example You said Eckel...Great ST and I like his running style for a FB in our system (one of my bluecollar favorites) but he is fighting for a spot on this roster and any rookie who beats him out still may not make the rooster as Eckel may behind Maroney, Faulk, Morris, and Evans. Eckel didn't make this squad till Morris was hurt.

    again I think your right there is more room than the past few years but 13 may have been a little high for the number of open spots. That said BB gets 80+ spots for the TC roster and anyone can win a job in camp.
  19. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Woods had a big impact in the game-that-cannot-be-mentioned when he let a scrawney Jint turn him over and rip a fumble recocery outa his arms.
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