looking forward to seeing Bodden back there.........

[BTTA]

I don't think it is of any value to rank DB's all in a single list.

#1 Troy Polamalu,

#2 Darrelle Revis,

#3 Nnamdi Asomugha,

#4 Ed Reed,

#5 Devin McCourty,

#6 Asante Samuel,

#7 Charles Woodson,

#8 DeAngelo Hall,

#9 Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie,

#10 Aqib Talib,

who would you take off that list for Bodden and Chung

 

[supafly]

I don't think it is of any value to rank DB's all in a single list.

That's probably a very fair statement, as I am also at fault after seeing that initial combo list. Breaking them down in their respective positions is likely much better, and much more appropriate. But hey, it's the offseason, and any talk of football related posting is much better than hearing about the current labor problem, right??

 

[patfanken]

A couple of points

1. SIZE does matter. THAT is the area where the Pats 2ndary is going to show the biggest leap of improvement. With the additions of Dowling and Boddin, the Pats will add 2 CBs to their coverage that will be a lot better adapted to cover the ever increasing number of larger WRs that the Pats will face.

Way too often the Pats gave up catches to big WRs who were essentially covered. Butler's problems came mostly because, despite being in the area, he couldn't make a play on the ball when covering a guy like Braylan Edwards. THAT's were HE needs to improve his game. He can get better at it despite his size. McCourty isn't much taller than Butler, but plays much stronger. Its less a problem of talent, but of technique and match ups.

You want Butler to improve his techniques and instincts for the ball, but also it would help if he didn't have to cover guys 6"'s taller than he is. With the additions of Dowling and Boddin, he won't have to. Thus his productivity is likely to improve as well as the team's overall productivity.

2. Adding Boddin and Dowling gives BB MUCH better match up flexibility week to week.

3. I don't see Samuel as being in the top 15 CBs. You cannot be one of the WORST tacklers in the league and be considered elite. If you were just considering ball hawking/big play CBs. I'd have him up there, but NOT all round guys.

4. Troy P can't hold Ed Reed's jock. He is constantly being jerked around when he plays against the Pats. A very good player, maybe even key to the Pittsburgh system, but he's NOT the best S in the league. That's ED REED.

5. The 2ndary will be good even if Merriweather plays as he has in the past. However if he can take the "next step" in his contract year, then it could be extraordinary. I think we will see continued improvement from Chung's game, and Sanders and Page offer excellent depth. Still it is Merriweather, IMHO, who holds the key to just just how good this 2ndary can ultimately be.

 

[supafly]

A couple of points

1. SIZE does matter. THAT is the area where the Pats 2ndary is going to show the biggest leap of improvement. With the additions of Dowling and Boddin, the Pats will add 2 CBs to their coverage that will be a lot better adapted to cover the ever increasing number of larger WRs that the Pats will face.

Way too often the Pats gave up catches to big WRs who were essentially covered. Butler's problems came mostly because, despite being in the area, he couldn't make a play on the ball when covering a guy like Braylan Edwards. THAT's were HE needs to improve his game. He can get better at it despite his size. McCourty isn't much taller than Butler, but plays much stronger. Its less a problem of talent, but of technique and match ups.

You want Butler to improve his techniques and instincts for the ball, but also it would help if he didn't have to cover guys 6"'s taller than he is. With the additions of Dowling and Boddin, he won't have to. Thus his productivity is likely to improve as well as the team's overall productivity.

2. Adding Boddin and Dowling gives BB MUCH better match up flexibility week to week.

3. I don't see Samuel as being in the top 15 CBs. You cannot be one of the WORST tacklers in the league and be considered elite. If you were just considering ball hawking/big play CBs. I'd have him up there, but NOT all round guys.

4. Troy P can't hold Ed Reed's jock. He is constantly being jerked around when he plays against the Pats. A very good player, maybe even key to the Pittsburgh system, but he's NOT the best S in the league. That's ED REED.

5. The 2ndary will be good even if Merriweather plays as he has in the past. However if he can take the "next step" in his contract year, then it could be extraordinary. I think we will see continued improvement from Chung's game, and Sanders and Page offer excellent depth. Still it is Merriweather, IMHO, who holds the key to just just how good this 2ndary can ultimately be.

Great analysis, Ken. I am looking forward to seeing some significant improvement in this area, and feel as though it is a major 'plus' on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[randomk1]

A couple of points


4. Troy P can't hold Ed Reed's jock. He is constantly being jerked around when he plays against the Pats. A very good player, maybe even key to the Pittsburgh system, but he's NOT the best S in the league. That's ED REED.

I definately agree with this. Troy is way overrated imo and his freelancing style really benefits from the steelers talented D. He was embarrassed by the Packers on the biggest stage and he seems almost lost when playing against us.

Healthy Ed Reed any day of the week.

 

[ausbacker]

I definately agree with this. Troy is way overrated imo and his freelancing style really benefits from the steelers talented D. He was embarrassed by the Packers on the biggest stage and he seems almost lost when playing against us.

Healthy Ed Reed any day of the week.

Agreed. Pats-Ravens contest from memory always seems to be tough encounters that always go deep into the fourth as a contest. Ed Reed almost always plays well against the Patriots. The Steelers on the other hand, they are normally one sided embarrassments with Polamalu and their secondary generally abused by Brady.

Playing the Steelers is automatic for the Patriots, playing the Ravens is a coin toss.

 

[Rob0729]

A couple of points

1. SIZE does matter. THAT is the area where the Pats 2ndary is going to show the biggest leap of improvement. With the additions of Dowling and Boddin, the Pats will add 2 CBs to their coverage that will be a lot better adapted to cover the ever increasing number of larger WRs that the Pats will face.

Way too often the Pats gave up catches to big WRs who were essentially covered. Butler's problems came mostly because, despite being in the area, he couldn't make a play on the ball when covering a guy like Braylan Edwards. THAT's were HE needs to improve his game. He can get better at it despite his size. McCourty isn't much taller than Butler, but plays much stronger. Its less a problem of talent, but of technique and match ups.

You want Butler to improve his techniques and instincts for the ball, but also it would help if he didn't have to cover guys 6"'s taller than he is. With the additions of Dowling and Boddin, he won't have to. Thus his productivity is likely to improve as well as the team's overall productivity.

2. Adding Boddin and Dowling gives BB MUCH better match up flexibility week to week.

3. I don't see Samuel as being in the top 15 CBs. You cannot be one of the WORST tacklers in the league and be considered elite. If you were just considering ball hawking/big play CBs. I'd have him up there, but NOT all round guys.

4. Troy P can't hold Ed Reed's jock. He is constantly being jerked around when he plays against the Pats. A very good player, maybe even key to the Pittsburgh system, but he's NOT the best S in the league. That's ED REED.

5. The 2ndary will be good even if Merriweather plays as he has in the past. However if he can take the "next step" in his contract year, then it could be extraordinary. I think we will see continued improvement from Chung's game, and Sanders and Page offer excellent depth. Still it is Merriweather, IMHO, who holds the key to just just how good this 2ndary can ultimately be.

I still think size is overrated. Look at McCourty. He isn't huge and he became pretty damn close to a shutdown CB towards the end of the year. On the other hand, look how Cromartie (a bigger WR) got burnt badly by the Pats in the second game of the regular season and almost single handily lost the playoff game vs. the Colts because he struggled against route runners.

Yes, the big CBs do have a natural advantage against the taller deep threat WRs like Andre Johnson and Calvin Johnson, but their size is a disadvantage against route runners. How many really tall deep threat #1 WRs do the Pats face a year? Two maybe three. In this division, none of the Pats competitors have a #1 WR who is a tall deep threat. The closest is the Jets with Braylon Edwards who is the Jets' #2 (assuming both he and Holmes return).

It is good to have Bodden back because he can line up against Edwards, but I like the significantly shorter McCourty's chances against guys like Calvin Johnson (who he covered very well last year). Arguably the best CB in the NFL, Revis, is under 6 feet.

 

[Rob0729]

I still think the starting secondary for the foreseable future may be McCourty and Bodden at CB and Dowling and Chung at safety. I think the secondary could go from a position of weakness to a position of strength. The return of Bodden is huge because is an upper echelon #2 CB and McCourty is developing into what could be an elite #1 CB. If you have an elite #1 CB, you need to have a competitent #2 CB or you are in trouble because the #2 CB will get thrown on a lot more. Arrington and Butler struggled with the extra attention, but Bodden definitely won't struggle nearly as much.

 

[ausbacker]

I still think the starting secondary for the foreseable future may be McCourty and Bodden at CB and Dowling and Chung at safety. I think the secondary could go from a position of weakness to a position of strength. The return of Bodden is huge because is an upper echelon #2 CB and McCourty is developing into what could be an elite #1 CB. If you have an elite #1 CB, you need to have a competitent #2 CB or you are in trouble because the #2 CB will get thrown on a lot more. Arrington and Butler struggled with the extra attention, but Bodden definitely won't struggle nearly as much.

Why are people insisting on Dowling being a safety? Why can't he be a corner?

 

[Rob0729]

Why are people insisting on Dowling being a safety? Why can't he be a corner?

Not saying he can't be a CB. Why is him moving to safety consider a knock on the guy or that he can't handle being a CB. Do you look at Ed Reed or Troy Polamalu as lesser players because they are safeties?

Fact of the matter is during the Super Bowl years, the safety position was a huge importance to the Pats' defense arguably more important than the CB position. Milloy had more impact in 2001 more than anyone other than Law. You can argue that Harrison was more important to the team in 2003 than Law and he was certainly the most important player in the secondary in 2004. I think Belichick is longing for his Troy Polumalu or Ed Reed. He has used his first pick of the draft on safeties more than he has CB (Meriweather and Chung vs. McCourty).

I think Dowling has the skill set to be an elite safety in the league if he lives up to potential. Looking at his highlight reels, he excels in zone defense and is very physical. If he turns into the next Ed Reed, is that a bad thing and knock because he doesn't turn into the Pats' #2 CB. Meriweather is likely gone after this season and there is a bigger need at safety. He could start at safety as soon as this year, but he is likely to back up McCourty and Bodden for the forseable future at CB.

People need to stop looking at moving Dowling to safety as a demotion or a knock on his skills. His skillset can turn him into an elite FS in the league if he meets his potential. Rodney Harrison should remind you of how much an elite safety can make this team dominant. The Steelers the last few years with Polamalu injured on the sidelines vs. him in the game also should tell you how much an elite safety can affect the defense.

 

[randomk1]

I wouldn't mind Dowling being moved to safety...granted our #2 CB position has some stability and doesn't get abused constantly.

 

[ausbacker]

Not saying he can't be a CB. Why is him moving to safety consider a knock on the guy or that he can't handle being a CB. Do you look at Ed Reed or Troy Polamalu as lesser players because they are safeties?

Fact of the matter is during the Super Bowl years, the safety position was a huge importance to the Pats' defense arguably more important than the CB position. Milloy had more impact in 2001 more than anyone other than Law. You can argue that Harrison was more important to the team in 2003 than Law and he was certainly the most important player in the secondary in 2004. I think Belichick is longing for his Troy Polumalu or Ed Reed. He has used his first pick of the draft on safeties more than he has CB (Meriweather and Chung vs. McCourty).

I think Dowling has the skill set to be an elite safety in the league if he lives up to potential. Looking at his highlight reels, he excels in zone defense and is very physical. If he turns into the next Ed Reed, is that a bad thing and knock because he doesn't turn into the Pats' #2 CB. Meriweather is likely gone after this season and there is a bigger need at safety. He could start at safety as soon as this year, but he is likely to back up McCourty and Bodden for the forseable future at CB.

People need to stop looking at moving Dowling to safety as a demotion or a knock on his skills. His skillset can turn him into an elite FS in the league if he meets his potential. Rodney Harrison should remind you of how much an elite safety can make this team dominant. The Steelers the last few years with Polamalu injured on the sidelines vs. him in the game also should tell you how much an elite safety can affect the defense.

No, I just don't understand why there's a need to move Dowling to safety when the safeties we have are good enough as is. Dowling will eventually replace Bodden given he's 30 this year and coming off a season long injury.

Moving into a hybrid defensive back role would be fine with me.

 

[RayClay]

I think size is a bonus, being able to cover comes first. That being said, Bodden looks just great to me, I find no real faults in his game.

We managed to find decent big corners when needed in the past (Chad Scott) and i don't think going after big corners because of size is a winning strategy. Lot's of busts there.

Of course, if you keep throwing draft picks and FAs at the position, you can have both.

 

[supafly]

I think size is a bonus, being able to cover comes first.

I absolutely agree. I think BB takes appreciation in technique, and overall coverage ability more than just throwing a dart at a list full of 6'+ CB's. As you said, bigger size doesn't necessarily = a better corner.

As far as continuing to draft players and acquire free agents at the position--it sure seems as though Belichick views the back line as a very important piece of the defensive puzzle--possibly even the most important, or at least ceratinly of equal importance to the highly coveted pass rusher.

With Bodden and DMcC as potentially coming close to being our versions of the shutdown CB, the improvement of talent, youth, speed, ST ability, and obviously depth--Arrington, Dowling, and Butler can offer a nice CB tandem this year. I guess Butler is certainly not etched in stone, as Wilhite may have one last chance to beat him out, but I am assuming that Wilhite is the odd man out in this instance.

 

[Brady2Welker]

Sanchez made that video possible.

 

[Rob0729]

No, I just don't understand why there's a need to move Dowling to safety when the safeties we have are good enough as is. Dowling will eventually replace Bodden given he's 30 this year and coming off a season long injury.

Moving into a hybrid defensive back role would be fine with me.

I disagree. Meriweather is overrated and gone after this season (hangs with the wrong element, doesn't listen to the coaching staff, makes costly mistakes). Sanders is a liability in coverage. The CBs are stronger than the safeties right now.

Bodden should have two to three solid years in him. The Pats don't have a starting FS in 2012 because Meriweather is all but gone. Dowling could replace Meriweather as early as midseason. Right now I think safety is more of a need than CB with Bodden coming back. Bodden's injury was a torn peck and it shouldn't affect his chances of rebounding since it wasn't a leg injury.

 

[ausbacker]

I disagree. Meriweather is overrated and gone after this season (hangs with the wrong element, doesn't listen to the coaching staff, makes costly mistakes). Sanders is a liability in coverage. The CBs are stronger than the safeties right now.

Bodden should have two to three solid years in him. The Pats don't have a starting FS in 2012 because Meriweather is all but gone. Dowling could replace Meriweather as early as midseason. Right now I think safety is more of a need than CB with Bodden coming back. Bodden's injury was a torn peck and it shouldn't affect his chances of rebounding since it wasn't a leg injury.

The problem with all of this is the assumption that Dowling will be playing safety.