Looking back at the wreckage: Notes, observations, rants and questions

[Steve102]

I "knew" the game was over when Ridley fumbled. It was at that point that I started watching the Castle marathon on TNT and just flicking over to the game during commercials.

Blasphemy!

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Something else I think worth mentioning, but didn't put in the O.P. because it encompasses more than just the last game even as a tangent, is that the lack of a pass rusher at the end of the season made the non-signing of Carter look like precisely the issue some of us were worried it would be.

Is BB reading your posts?

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...mond-armstead-signs-patriots.html#post3353194

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I "knew" the game was over when Ridley fumbled. It was at that point that I started watching the Castle marathon on TNT and just flicking over to the game during commercials.

Had the family visiting us for a few days. Girls wanted to watch Downton Abbey. At that point, so did I.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree, IF they were healthy, we'd be getting excited for the game instead of analyzing the off-season. There are always injuries...

While this is true, it's also a bit misleading (not that I think you're trying for that). There are always injuries, but let's look at who's been injured, and when, for Patriots losses post-SB:

2006 - much of the defense is hurt/sick in the second half. Alexander is forced into a game the Patriots were dominating, and Manning comes back by making him his *****.

2007 - Brady gets bad ankle injury in the AFCCG, Neal is lost early in the SB, and the TEs are freakin' [highlight]all[/highlight] essentially useless due to injury.

2009 - an extremely limited offense loses Welker in the last game of the regular season

2011 - Gronk lost for SB

2012 - Gronk lost, Talib lost early in game, Jones hobbled and mostly useless for much of the latter part of the year.


Not to single out lesser players, but can we just have 2013 be the year that the starters are healthy and the guys who get too hurt to play well are the backups coming in for a play or two instead of key players?

 

[Deus Irae]

Is BB reading your posts?

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...mond-armstead-signs-patriots.html#post3353194

 

[JackBauer]

Gregory was a good enough S during the regular season but he was just another example of how stopgaps/depth chart guys aren't going to cut it if we want to make it in the playoffs. I love McCourty at S, and it's time to pair another player next to him and relegate Gregory to the third safety position.

 

[Deus Irae]

Blasphemy!

I hear you, and that's something that I almost never do. I just "knew". That play told me all my subconscious needed to know.

Had the family visiting us for a few days. Girls wanted to watch Downton Abbey. At that point, so did I.

That's an excellent show that I'm deliberately not watching because I don't want another "Doc Martin" situation, where I'm actually furious because the Brits' idea of a 'season' is a ridiculously small number of episodes compared to what I'm used to from U.S. television. Sherlock is another series that was doing that to me, so I had to stop watching that one, too.

I'll watch them in marathon fashion, after there are enough episodes to satisfy my need for a longer 'season'. In the meantime, I await the next season of Doc Martin with an almost crack junkie level of withdrawal.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Some really good stuff in this thread. I haven't really been able to process much of the game yet, but there are nuggets of stuff in here that I've been thinking about.

1) I think games -- even blowouts -- often come down to a handful of critical plays. The ones that I think really mattered here were the quick snap early on third and short near the red zone and the Welker drop. Those plays felt really expensive at the time, and I think changed the game.

2) I generally like the Belichick method of analysis, but when it goes wrong it feels like over-analysis. Some times, you just have to let the team play. Like late in the first half, you just knew when the Patriots got the ball, they would run and let the clock bleed down on the first play or series, to ensure the Ravens had no time left to end the half. That strategy has worked often, but this time it left the team with too little time to try to score a TD. Some times, you just have to play, and let your defense get in there if it doesn't work out. Belichick is obsessed with getting or letting opponents get the 2 for 1 -- that is, ending the half with the ball and getting the kick off in the second half. Screw it. Some times you just need to play.

3) The same was true of the wind, as others have mentioned. Punting from the 35 sucks. Putting there team at the 10 or 15 is no big deal. Is there a chance you can pin them really deep on a perfect punt? Yes. But it's no greater than the chance of putting one in the end zone or picking up a first down on fourth down for that matter.

4) How did we get to the point were Talib was so important to this team? This team was so much better with him on the field than off it this year. To look at it, you'd think this guy was a first round draft pick who had been cultivated by the team, but of course he's not. He's a guy that any team with a fourth rounder or better could have gotten at the trade deadline. How is it that the team we had assembled was so poor in this area that we needed Talib just to make it competent? It's not like the secondary's problems weren't a known issue.

 

[Deus Irae]

...4) How did we get to the point were Talib was so important to this team? This team was so much better with him on the field than off it this year. To look at it, you'd think this guy was a first round draft pick who had been cultivated by the team, but of course he's not. He's a guy that any team with a fourth rounder or better could have gotten at the trade deadline. How is it that the team we had assembled was so poor in this area that we needed Talib just to make it competent? It's not like the secondary's problems weren't a known issue.

Meriweather
Wilhite
Wheatley
Butler
Chung
Dowling
Springs
Hobbs trade
Samuel allowed to leave


etc....

They've flung plenty against the wall. They just can't seem to get much to stick.

 

[borg]

Deus.......You forgot to include a Felger apology

I'm with ya on the Lloyd .....he plays like a beeatch.

13 points.....BB built a TE centric offense. Without Gronk, the offense has to go to plan B, a traditional NFL 3 WR package, but NE is inadequately staffed to be a WR centric offense. Especially when your #2 WR is incapable of extending plays or at least stretching the D. Welker as the deep threat is a joke. Deep passes are low %/high reward plays to begin with.....that is why the deep threat needs superior athletic skills to chase and/or WIN the ball. The only way Brady connects deep with this designed grouping is if he is perfect.
Two years in a row without Gronk being effective or playing... two years when the offensive output gets cut in half. Pats need a better plan B. Their personel came up short.

Lastly....when NE feels they are losing the LOS battle on offense, they instinctively rush to shotgun, thereby eliminating any notion of a run. Huge tactical win for the defense, knowing the play is 95% pass. Either the Patriots change this mentality of avoiding engagement at the LOS, or they build a tougher O Line that can win these battles. The G Men last year, SF and Balt this year....it's strikingly obvious that these teams are winning the battle on the line vs the Pats O.

 

[ausbacker]

Meriweather
Wilhite
Wheatley
Butler
Chung
Dowling
Springs
Hobbs trade
Samuel allowed to leave


etc....

They've flung plenty against the wall. They just can't seem to get much to stick.

I've been wondering Deus, is there a point where we must consider the defensive scheme? Given the turnover on D, how long can/should the players take the blame?

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus.......You forgot to include a Felger apology

I stand by what I said about Felger. I gave the Ravens a shot to win the game, even though I expected the Patriots to win and cover. I just didn't buy the "I've got a feeling" crap he was spewing.

I'm with ya on the Lloyd .....he plays like a beeatch.

I just don't get his overreliance on the dive. He had multiple plays where dives weren't needed, but he did them anyway, and sometimes those are costing yards.

13 points.....BB built a TE centric offense. Without Gronk, the offense has to go to plan B, a traditional NFL 3 WR package, but NE is inadequately staffed to be a WR centric offense. Especially when your #2 WR is incapable of extending plays or at least stretching the D. Welker as the deep threat is a joke. Deep passes are low %/high reward plays to begin with.....that is why the deep threat needs superior athletic skills to chase and/or WIN the ball. The only way Brady connects deep with this designed grouping is if he is perfect.

Two years in a row without Gronk being affective or playing... two years when the offensive output gets cut in half. Pats need a better plan B. Their personel came up short.

Gronk's been a huge loss, no doubt, but the game plan for this one was terrible. I'm usually one of the staunch McDaniels supporters, but the architect(s) of this past game plan really need to get an asskicking.

Lastly....when NE feels they are losing the LOS battle on offense, they instinctively rush to shotgun, thereby eliminating any notion of a run. Huge tactical win for the defense, knowing the play is 95% pass. Either the Patriots change this mentality of avoiding engagement at the LOS, or they build a tougher O Line that can win these battles. The G Men last year, SF and Balt this year....it's strikingly obvious that these teams are winning the battle on the line vs the Pats O.

You've got a point here, which leads to something else I should, perhaps, have mentioned in my O.P.. Wendell and Connolly have got to be upgraded (even if that just means upgrading at RG and putting Connolly back at center), and Solder needs a set of balls grafted on to him.

 

[SVN]

I stand by what I said about Felger. I gave the Ravens a shot to win the game, even though I expected the Patriots to win and cover. I just didn't buy the "I've got a feeling" crap he was spewing.



I just don't get his overreliance on the dive. He had multiple plays where dives weren't needed, but he did them anyway, and sometimes those are costing yards.



Gronk's been a huge loss, no doubt, but the game plan for this one was terrible. I'm usually one of the staunch McDaniels supporters, but the architect(s) of this past game plan really need to get an asskicking.




You've got a point here, which leads to something else I should, perhaps, have mentioned in my O.P.. Wendell and Connolly have got to be upgraded (even if that just means upgrading at RG and putting Connolly back at center), and Solder needs a set of balls grafted on to him.

Problem with lloyd iam guessing is he wants every catch to be made with his body behind. So falls down trying to make the catch with his body .

 

[Deus Irae]

I've been wondering Deus, is there a point where we must consider the defensive scheme? Given the turnover on D, how long can/should the players take the blame?

People have been touting that notion for years. I'd take it a lot more seriously if the washouts here went on to play well elsewhere, but they haven't, so I really can't bite on the issue. I mean, not even one of them has panned out elsewhere, to my recollection.

I just think it's been a personnel issue. Or, to put it another way, this team hasn't really had a decent backfield since

Hobbs
Samuel
Meriweather
Harrison

It's sad to think that this team really hasn't put a passable starting 4 in the defensive backfield since 2007, but I look at the success/failure of the personnel involved and that's the only conclusion I can really come to. People underestimated Hobbs, especially as a CB2. They also overestimated Samuel when he was here and then acted as if he was garbage the moment he was traded. That wasn't the golden age of this dynasty's DB play, but it was the silver age, and it was pretty good.

 

[Ring 6]

It just made no sense to me. I think they need to self-scout and ask themselves if they've become risk averse to the point where they're more afraid of losing they they are desirous of winning when it comes to playoff games.

This is something that struck me toward the end of the game and on the disappointing departure from the stadium.
It seems every time our offense underperforms we miss on a ton of 3rd and short, yet convert a bunch too. We move the ball but misfire on a 3rd down that is very makable.
I think what you are saying plays into that. We normally get first downs on 1st or 2nd and don't rely on converting 3rd all the way down the field.
It seemed just like in many other games that we were effective on most every play, and ultimately have the drive stalled by a 3rd and 2.
I think the difference is instead of playing to take what is there, we played to get 3+ yards on every play.
I left thinking 3rd down conversions killed us, and we converted 46% of them. Playing not to lose (afraid of turnovers or bad field position) seems to fit.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

I just want depth in the DBs so if a talib like player goes down...the entire fan base doesn't hold their breath the rest of the game...DRC is a FA. Always liked him even if he has struggled in philly that last year or so

 

[Ring 6]

I just want depth in the DBs so if a talib like player goes down...the entire fan base doesn't hold their breath the rest of the game...DRC is a FA. Always liked him even if he has struggled in philly that last year or so

I think its more about the quality of the 5 that play mostly than the quality of the guy who comes in.
We can't have 4 starting corners, and we have needed that most years.
If the other players out there are better you can accomodate a sub needing to play.
Marquise Cole was eaten alive Sunday and when we broke camp he was 6th or 7th on the corner depth chart, not 3rd.

 

[ausbacker]

People have been touting that notion for years. I'd take it a lot more seriously if the washouts here went on to play well elsewhere, but they haven't, so I really can't bite on the issue. I mean, not even one of them has panned out elsewhere, to my recollection.

I just think it's been a personnel issue. Or, to put it another way, this team hasn't really had a decent backfield since

Hobbs
Samuel
Meriweather
Harrison

It's sad to think that this team really hasn't put a passable starting 4 in the defensive backfield since 2007, but I look at the success/failure of the personnel involved and that's the only conclusion I can really come to. People underestimated Hobbs, especially as a CB2. They also overestimated Samuel when he was here and then acted as if he was garbage the moment he was traded. That wasn't the golden age of this dynasty's DB play, but it was the silver age, and it was pretty good.

What I am getting at is there is only so long you can apportion the blame to the players when different players are producing similar outcomes.

Personally, I think it's a mix of players, scheme and coaching.

 

[Deus Irae]

What I am getting at is there is only so long you can apportion the blame to the players when different players are producing similar outcomes.

Personally, I think it's a mix of players, scheme and coaching.

I hear what you're saying. I just don't really agree that there's a scheme/coaching problem above and beyond the imperfections that any scheme/coaching will have. While the coaching hasn't been perfect, it's been top shelf. The problem is trying to make chicken salad when you're working with chicken.... droppings.

Get this team to line up

Dennard
Talib (or some equivalent)
McCourty
Legit S starter

with

Gregroy
Wilson
Legit outside CB3 who can step in if a starter goes down
Arrington as CB4/slot CB

and the talk about the scheme will disappear. Even this season, the changes made in the secondary allowed the Patriots to be much more aggresssive. When you've got garbage on that back line, you're just holding on for life, the way it was once Talib went out of the game on Sunday. Give the team a decent group, and that back line can become a positive factor.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Also if the pats can somehow get a pass rush..it will take a lot of pressure off secondary. But that remains to be seen...haven't had a pass rush in years