Looking back at our trades with the Raiders

[PugBrady]

I agree with the original poster, and not only about this trade, but for the majority of the trades BB has made with the Raiders. There is a misconception that BB has taken advantage of Al Davis but this is hardly the case. Objectively, I would say that, despite Davis' reputation for making lousy trades, it is not clear that BB has gotten the better of him. Looking at the recent trade history:

Randy Moss for a 4th round pick- This is clearly the best trade for the Patriots and is an overwhelmingly lopsided trade. However, IIRC, there was not a lot of interest in Randy Moss from other teams at this period of time. I believe the only other team that was rumored to be interested was the Packers and they were offering less than a 4th rounder. The Raiders did not have a lot of other options, but I do credit BB for taking a chance on a disgruntled Moss.

Duane Starks for a 3rd round pick- Very bad trade for the Patriots. He played less than 1 season and ended up being placed on IR.

Doug Gabriel for 5th round pick-Another bad trade. Had a total of 25 catches in 12 games before being released.

Derrick Burgess for a 3rd and 5th pick- Not a good trade for the Patriots to give up a 3rd + 5th for one year of Burgess in which he had little impact.

Richard Seymour for a 2011 pick- to be determined. It is debatable how much the Patriots missed Seymour during the 2009 season and if they would have gone further in the playoffs with him.

So, of these 5 trades:
Patriots: Randy Moss, 2011 1st, Duane Starks, Doug Gabriel, Derrick Burgess
Raiders: Richard Seymour, 2 3rds, 4th, 2 5ths

 

[HarkDawg]

Seymour is still looking for ridiculous money based on most of the reports. He wants to be paid like a top DE and he just isn't that good. He is still a great player, but he is not one of the top d-linemen in the league. Seymour knows that someone would pay him that and the Pats only had one franchise tag. Seymour isn't a guy you want to give Peppers money to anymore.

Who ever is/was PRO for the trade is correct.


No way we sign Vince and big Sey to deals.

We chose correctly, and received a probable great round 1 pick for '11

and we locked up the big man to play NT

 

[WhiZa]

This is all I could find in the matter. It's not completely clear....

According to Al ... - Extra Points - Boston.com

"So, he said he had to go to Kraft and he came back to me. They changed the deal a little bit, and then they gave me the opportunity to make my choice on draft choices.

"As you well know in 2010 we have a first, second, two thirds, a fourth and two fifths. We have a lot of choices. I said I'll go with the 1 in 2011. I'll stick with that. That's what you can have. I just wanted to get it done."

When I read that what made the most sense was BB wanted a 2010 first, but instead Davis opted for a 2011 first.

 

[Badluck]

When I read that what made the most sense was BB wanted a 2010 first, but instead Davis opted for a 2011 first.

really? to me it sounded like BB/Kraft was fine with either one and Al figured giving up the 2011 pic was what was best for him

 

[signbabybrady]

it was reported, and i even think al davis himself said he offered this years 1st but BB said he wanted the 2011 1st

I heard that the option was a 2010 2nd rd pick or a 2011 1st rd pick. I can't remember where I heard this so I can't attribute it to a source. But this follows logic of draft pick values as they say a pick this year is worth a rd worse than next year.

 

[RobertWeathers]

yea i think this only went as far back as last offseason
as far as gabriel he was playing with the raiders again by the end of the season so a wasted 5th

I dunna know. A 5th round pick for a guy who caught a few balls when the Pats had basically 2 receivers that TB could throw to? He didn't work out, but I don't consider a 5th that exorbitant.

 

[HarkDawg]

for the most Part..... I am going to leave a base number of 12


Pick 12 eg.


I suspect the Patriots will have a better option than the 12th selection in '11....


but my point is.... in any draft you will find premier talent with earlier round picks. You are expected to hit w/ your 1st rounders and 12 would put us in a great position for basically any position player we want.


Raiders round 1 in '11 will be better than a 12th overall

 

[Rob0729]

I agree with the original poster, and not only about this trade, but for the majority of the trades BB has made with the Raiders. There is a misconception that BB has taken advantage of Al Davis but this is hardly the case. Objectively, I would say that, despite Davis' reputation for making lousy trades, it is not clear that BB has gotten the better of him. Looking at the recent trade history:

Randy Moss for a 4th round pick- This is clearly the best trade for the Patriots and is an overwhelmingly lopsided trade. However, IIRC, there was not a lot of interest in Randy Moss from other teams at this period of time. I believe the only other team that was rumored to be interested was the Packers and they were offering less than a 4th rounder. The Raiders did not have a lot of other options, but I do credit BB for taking a chance on a disgruntled Moss.

Duane Starks for a 3rd round pick- Very bad trade for the Patriots. He played less than 1 season and ended up being placed on IR.

Doug Gabriel for 5th round pick-Another bad trade. Had a total of 25 catches in 12 games before being released.

Derrick Burgess for a 3rd and 5th pick- Not a good trade for the Patriots to give up a 3rd + 5th for one year of Burgess in which he had little impact.

Richard Seymour for a 2011 pick- to be determined. It is debatable how much the Patriots missed Seymour during the 2009 season and if they would have gone further in the playoffs with him.

So, of these 5 trades:
Patriots: Randy Moss, 2011 1st, Duane Starks, Doug Gabriel, Derrick Burgess
Raiders: Richard Seymour, 2 3rds, 4th, 2 5ths

Ummmmm..... Al Davis is apparently so good at trading with the Patriots that he gets credit for bad trades by the Pats have absolutely nothing to do with him or the Raiders. The Pats traded with the Cardinals for Starks. Starks went to the Raiders after he was released by the Patriots.

The Pats have had two bad trades with the Raiders - Gabriel and Burgess. Burgess might have been a good trade if they got him in at the beginning of the offseason and he learned the defense before the start of the season.

 

[HarkDawg]

I think Big Al is a closet Patriot Fan even when the Pats beat the Raiders.... :americaflag:
- Al is still a red, white and blue Pat-

it doesn't bother him



how old is he, anybody know?

 

[Deus Irae]

i think ol' Al just hustled us

The Seymour deal was terrible.

The Burgess deal was terrible

The Gabriel deal was terrible

The Moss deal was great


3 of the last 4 trades Belichick has made with the Raiders have been terrible trades for the Patriots.

 

[shmessy]

The Seymour deal was terrible.

Yeah, that 2011 1st rounder was a complete bust.

Thanks for the comedy!

 

[shmessy]

......and look at how improved the Raiders were with Seymour!!!!

They went from 5-11 to...........5-11.

Well, I guess that was worth something in jersey sales?

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Yeah, that 2011 1st rounder was a complete bust.

Thanks for the comedy!

That one in neither a bust nor a great move yet

T.B.A. in about 2 or 3 years from now

 

[RobertWeathers]

The Seymour deal was terrible.

The Burgess deal was terrible

The Gabriel deal was terrible

The Moss deal was great


3 of the last 4 trades Belichick has made with the Raiders have been terrible trades for the Patriots.

Can't judge the Seymour deal just yet. Even with that said, a 1st round pick for a starting D-linemen is not bad value.

With regard to Gabriel, it's not like the Pats traded a top choice for him. 5th rounder for a player who provided early-season stability to the receiving corps is low risk.

The Burgess deal is certainly not looking good. Pats were desperate.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Yeah, that 2011 1st rounder was a complete bust.

Thanks for the comedy!

The deal has obviously hurt the Pats in the short term. In fact, the moves in the last two years (after the super bowl meltdown) has told me everything I need to know. The Pats are trying to build a team for the future and are not in any rush to "win now". It's unfortunate because they are wasting arguably Tom Brady's best years.
It seems like the mentality they have is "if we win with the players we have now, it's just a bonus". The facts are, the only people that think this roster is more talented than it really is are Patriot fans.
With Moss getting older, Welker getting injured, player turnover and the Pats poor drafting in the last few years, I don't see them winning another super bowl with Tom Brady as their QB. However, if someone from their 2009 class actually emerges into a legit starter and can find the same thing in the 2010 class, then the Pats will be in better shape. But that's asking way too much.

 

[shmessy]

That one in neither a bust nor a great move yet

T.B.A. in about 2 or 3 years from now

Ummm....... that was the point.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah, that 2011 1st rounder was a complete bust.

Thanks for the comedy!

How'd the Patriots pass rush look up the middle?

How'd the run defense fare against the Ravens?

Wasn't it awesome watching Wilfork having to play DE because the other players couldn't defend the point of attack?



It's not comedy, although the comments made by the homers trying to defend an entire season being pissed away are quite amusing.

A potential help years down the road does not make up for throwing away a season in the present, which is what was done.

 

[Deus Irae]

Can't judge the Seymour deal just yet.

Sure we can. The pick is irrelevant to the lost season of 2009, and to the need to replace the position moving into 2010.

With regard to Gabriel, it's not like the Pats traded a top choice for him. 5th rounder for a player who provided early-season stability to the receiving corps is low risk.

It was a terrible trade, low risk or not

The Burgess deal is certainly not looking good. Pats were desperate.

I don't think they were desperate. I think they were stupid. It happens to everyone. Unfortunately, it happened to Belichick far too often last season.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Sure we can.



It was a terrible trade, low risk or not



I don't think they were desperate. I think they were stupid. It happens to everyone. Unfortunately, it happened to Belichick far too often last season.

If you think they were stupid then you will think they are ******ed when they re-sign Burgess another season.

If they ain't keeping AD,they certainly won't let Burgess go as well,this team would look like an expansion team in the front 7,even if an experienced LB like Burgess sucks he stays because Thomas is going...Burgess is only gone if the team finds several veteran OLBs in FA soon.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Sure we can. The pick is irrelevant to the lost season of 2009, and to the need to replace the position moving into 2010..

I don't look at it that way. Pats got great value w/ a #1. If they traded Seymour for say Jamal Williams, then I would say that they got screwed. Its an apples to oranges comparison.

It was a terrible trade, low risk or not..

A 5th for a guy who caught 20 balls for almost 300 yards in the uniform? If a 5th did that in 2006, people would be fine w/ it.

I don't think they were desperate. I think they were stupid. It happens to everyone. Unfortunately, it happened to Belichick far too often last season.

We'll agree to disagree on Burgess. No question BB was off on FA/Trade decisions in 2009. Improvement is needed.