Welcome to PatsFans.com

Looking at Dice-K

Discussion in 'Red Sox Fan Forum' started by maverick4, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    7,669
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I've been bothered by reader comments on various major newspaper sites, over the recent Dice-K spat with pitching coach John Farrell. The repeated themes are that Dice-K is a spoiled diva, garbage as a player, way overpaid, the next odd Manny (minority target for Boston papers), and a clubhouse cancer. I'll address each of these points:

    1. Stubborn, spoiled diva. Why is nobody questioning Farrell? I don't think the guy is an elite pitching coach based on his work since he's joined the staff. He previously worked as a minor league director (not coach) for the Indians, so his teaching mentality isn't used to dealing with estalished MLB veterans. Farrell trying to force a change on Dice-K, is as stupid as a hitting coach trying to drastically change the approach of an already-extremely-successful hitter in the major leagues. I remember Beckett being pretty stubborn to the Sox about his rehab training/approach when he was hurt and horrible in the recent past, yet the fan comments were completely different towards Beckett.

    2. Garbage as a player. Dice-K broke 200 strikeouts in his first season, then in his second season went 18-3 with a sub-3 era, and the lowest batting average against hitters in the entire league. He was 3rd in Cy Young voting. Clearly, the guy knows how to pitch and has had great success when healthy. Also, once the umps start giving him the corner calls (like Maddux and Glavine got) instead of routinely screwing him over, he would be even more dangerous as a pitcher.
    Daisuke Matsuzaka Stats, News, Photos - Boston Red Sox - ESPN

    3. Way overpaid. Before his injury this year, I don't think anyone would say Dice-K was overpaid based on his two healthy seasons. The guy is making 52Million over 6 years (not even 9M/year). His posting fee was 51Million, which his old team received and he did not get. Even considering the total amount spent on him, consider these other players whose performance isn't anywhere close to their pay (there are tons of other examples, these are just the ones off the top of my head). The fan complaints and mentions of their contracts aren't nearly what Dice-K gets every time he's mentioned in the news:

    Barry Zito makes 18.5million
    JD Drew makes 14million
    Bronson Arroyo makes 10.1million
    Jason Kendall makes 13.4million
    Torii Hunter makes 18 million
    Derek Jeter makes 21million

    4. The next oddball Manny, or a clubhouse cancer. First, Dice-K has been here three years and this is the first time any article has been made about him disagreeing with management. I think the Globe and other media articles are exaggerating and blowing it up, more than what was actually said. You'll notice that most articles don't even directly translate or cite what Dice-K said to the Japanese media. There is plenty of media distortion on this, all anti-player and pro-management.

    Second, Boston media has a history of demonizing minority players more than White players, even those who produce. Whether it be on Manny, Pedro, or past players not just in baseball but across sports, the Boston media (as well as its population) has an existing reputation as it pertains to treating its non-White players.

    Third, Boston news has always demonized the player and sided with management over any disagreements. Look at the media and how much Nomar was demonized and how quickly the fans turned on him, look at Manny, look at Pedro, look at other stars who were immediately demonized the moment they decided to leave town, or had an argument with the Sox management. Boston media is masterful at manipulating its populace into hating a player, when it wants to. It's a double standard that the media always presents the management's side, and that the players hardly ever have their voices or perspectives heard among the mass population.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  2. scout

    scout Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    7,624
    Likes Received:
    10
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #15 Jersey
    Yea, pretty much agree.
    A player misspeaks or his comment is taken out of context by the media and everyone has a kneejerk reaction. Two closers come to mind, one could have been the MVP of Boston's World Championship which ended the curse (Burger King Boy) and the other was a recent comment by Papelbon concerning playing for the Yankees.
    Ted Williams made the same comment.
  3. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    7,669
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I managed to dig up the actual comments which most Boston newspapers have been omitting.

    In a Japanese newspaper:
    ["If I'm forced to continue to train in this environment, I may no longer be able to pitch like I did in Japan," Matsuzaka is quoted as saying in the article. "The only reason why I managed to win games during the first and second years (in the U.S.) was because I used the savings of the shoulder I built up in Japan. Since I came to the Major Leagues, I couldn't train in my own way, so now I've lost all those savings."]

    Hardly close to resembling the exaggeration and distortion being made in Boston papers, or deserving of the back lash that's happened.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  4. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    36,491
    Likes Received:
    18
    Ratings:
    +23 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #87 Jersey
    Want a mulligan Mav ... oh ... :eek: ... you are banned.

    Dice-K needs to be shipped out to the left coast.
  5. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    25,424
    Likes Received:
    61
    Ratings:
    +82 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #24 Jersey
    Most of our pitching staff save for maybe Beckett (if he can keep playing like he did the other day) needs to be scrapped. They are absolute garbage from the starters all the way down to the bullpen. If we're going to have to count on the big bats coming together and carrying us all season in spite of this pitching staff, we're probably not going to make the playoffs again.
  6. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    25,424
    Likes Received:
    61
    Ratings:
    +82 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #24 Jersey
    Oh yeah, and maverick4 is/was a douche.
  7. captain insano

    captain insano Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    like I've been saying since before the season started. beckett is garbage also. he cant stay healthy for a entire year never mind pitch like he did the other night on a consistent basis.
  8. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2008
    Messages:
    12,962
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +22 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #51 Jersey
    Beckett is not garbage. Inconsistent of late yes but garbage no.

    It really aggravates me that stay at home nobodies use vicious adjectives to describe professional sports people given you wouldn't be able to do 1/100th of what they do whilst living your life vicariously through those actions.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2011
  9. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    12,371
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    lester and Buchholz?

    Pen may actually be very good, too.

    Only serious concern I have right now is Daisuke.
  10. Keyser Söze

    Keyser Söze Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    2,289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    captain insano thinks everyone on the team is garbage. Too bad for him this team is going to still win 90+ and make the playoffs. He thinks his lack of baseball intelligence makes him look smart. Yeah we know, we all saw you *****ing and moaning about a stacked team getting 3-4 of its best players back from injury.
  11. captain insano

    captain insano Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    the redsox are stuck with beckett lackey[new deals] and dice k and his no trade claus. garbage all three of them.
  12. Keyser Söze

    Keyser Söze Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    2,289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    You cant be garbage and 2 hit the New York Yankees, not that I expect you to understand that.
  13. captain insano

    captain insano Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    you can be garbage if you havent done anything since 2007 and had a era just under 6 last year and cant stay healthy for a entire year. sorry little man i know you love him so but hes garbage. it will take a lot more than one game to prove otherwise. this guy is supposed to be the ace the anchor of the staff. hes a bum.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  14. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    12,371
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    You conveniently skipped over '09
  15. Boston Boxer

    Boston Boxer U.S. Air Force Retired PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #75 Jersey
    dont waste your time Chico...it is like beating your head against the wall
  16. captain insano

    captain insano Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    no i didnt i said since 07. that covers 09. he suked in the playoffs.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  17. Boston Boxer

    Boston Boxer U.S. Air Force Retired PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #75 Jersey
    LOL, NO..."since 07" means that 2007 was the last time he did anything good. you are truely a captain insano
  18. captain insano

    captain insano Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    word games now? i know what i said. ill say it again hes done nothing since 07. that just about covers it. for a guy who is supposed to be a shut down ace hes garbage. im sorry you dont like my opinion. try not to take it so hard its just my opinion. lol some of the over the top angry foaming at the mouth reactions to my posts a guy who supposedly doesn't know anything about baseball are priceless :D
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  19. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    12,371
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    He pitched one playoff game in '09, and while it wasn't a gem it hardly sucked -- and regardless, 1 playoff game doesn't negate an entire season.

    Sorry, you were simply wrong.
  20. captain insano

    captain insano Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    no suking in the playoffs is when your ace is supposed to shine, he suked in 09 when it mattered the most. his ace days are over. its not a matter of whos right or wrong its a matter of opinion. btw his era that year was 3.89 or 3.85. and he gave up 25 HRs those are hardly ace like numbers. the guy has had one great year one 2007.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  21. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    12,371
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Never said he was reliable as an ace, did I?

    You, otoh, said, "you can be garbage if you havent done anything since 2007." You were wrong. He had a good season in 2009.

    All opinions aren't equal. Try supporting yours with facts for a change.
  22. captain insano

    captain insano Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    i know what i said. and he hasn't done anything since 07 nothing. he had a 3.85 era and gave up 25 hrs. and he suked in the playoffs. 3.85 and giving up 25 hrs is garbage for a guy who is supposed to be a ace. you think 3.85 and giving up 25 hrs is something do you? i don't. i think thats garbage for a ace. then add the 5 plus runs he gave up in one game in the playoffs and that makes him more garbage like. you either think thats acceptable or you don't. either way its a matter of opinion. we can go tit for tat on this all day long. you obviously like beckett. i don't i think hes a overrated bum.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2011
  23. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    12,371
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I don't think you do.

    You said he's "garbage" -- not "garbage for an ace."

    In 2009 he had a 3.85 ERA, was 17-6 and pitched over 200 innings. Sorry, that's not garbage -- it's well above average. (Who cares how many HRs he gave up? That's in his ERA.)

    He gave up 4 runs and pitched into the 7th in his one playoff start. Again, not great, but not horrible, either.

    The only reason we're going tit for tat is that you can't simply admit you were wrong.

    If you want to say he's not an ace, fine. But that's a long cry from being "garbage."

    (btw, I actually don't like Beckett very much. My personal feelings have nothing to do with the fact that what you said was wrong.)
  24. captain insano

    captain insano Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    lol sorry ill admit nothing. like i said its no a matter of right and wrong. its a matter of opinion. i think hes garbage and i think his 09 was garbage. 5 plus runs alone in the playoffs one game is garbage for a ace or any pitcher for that matter. you spin it anyway you want. ace not a ace blah blah. a guy who is supposed to be your number 1 09 was garbage. i dont care what i said before this is what im saying now. this is a message board not a court of law. lol your allowed to refine your statements and opinions. my opinion was is based on him being a ace. if he was a number 5 starter then my opinion wouldn't be as harsh. then he would be a bust like dice k.:D you can insist till your blue in the face that im wrong. i say im right.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2011
  25. captain insano

    captain insano Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    this is what i said before. notice the last sentence? i included the phrase ace. my opinion of him is based on him being a ace. that is now irrefutable. your little message board gotcha game has just blew up. so unless your telling me that becketts 09 stats are good for a ace we are in complete agreement. hes garbage.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2011
  26. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    12,371
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I get it -- you're one of those people who's too insecure to admit he was wrong.
  27. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    12,371
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    You can't read or write, it appears. Merely mentioning the word "ace" doesn't mean anything. You didn't say he's not an ace -- you said he's garbage.

    So if you're now claiming that he's just not an ace, why not be an adult and just admit that's what you're claiming?

    And you also said he's done nothing since '07 -- sorry, you can scream and hold your hands over your ears as long as you want, but the bottom line is that his '09 season was well above average. (and it was 4 runs in his playoff start, not 5 -- but you'll probably just pout about that being a matter of opinion, too...)
  28. captain insano

    captain insano Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    no the botton line is for a ace his 09 season was garbage his 08 season and 10 season all garbage. just like i said from the beginning:D you say im wrong. but unfortunately for you there is no way to prove that. why is that? because its a matter of opinion. why cant you just admit that?
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2011
  29. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    12,371
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    re. first bold: Glad to see you've changed your tune from what you claimed in the beginning.

    re. second bold: Your first post on the matter ("the beginning") -- "like I've been saying since before the season started. beckett is garbage also. he cant stay healthy for a entire year never mind pitch like he did the other night on a consistent basis." Nothing about "for an ace" anywhere in the post. Sad to lie just b/c you can't admit being wrong.

    One day you may grow up. Hopefully for you you're not supposed to be an adult now.

    Bye bye
  30. captain insano

    captain insano Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,514
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    i knew it was just a matter of time before you went personal. thats when you know when someone lost the argument when they go personal. and i need to grow up?:rolleyes: dont be so angry all the time its not good for your health.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2011

Share This Page