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Lombardi weighs in on team's moves and motives

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Box_O_Rocks, Mar 7, 2010.

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  1. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Lombardi: Falcons sign a CB, but it doesn't help | National Football Post
    Draft, it's where the true talent/value lies.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  2. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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  3. PATRIOTS-80

    PATRIOTS-80 Rookie

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    Draft picks are important, either by infusing talent by drafting good players or trading them for talented players (Welker, Moss, etc.).

    If you go look on the roster, most of the players were drafted by the team or traded for. FA is really not a good way to build a team.
  4. mcsully

    mcsully Rookie

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    I guess I find it interesting he says the Pats were never interested in Boldin..
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  5. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The patriots are always interested in the draft and in signing their own. We almost never make a huge splash in the early portion of free agency, especially for the high-profile players.

    That being said, there is still a ways to go regarding our own free agents. We still don't know what will happen to Bodden, Faulk, Green, Watson or Burgess.

    And while signing our own is the top priority, we are certainly in the mix in the bidding for the receivers available.
  6. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    I never said it was and I agree that ideally you want to build through the draft. However, could anyone argue with a straight face that the picks we gave up for Welker and Moss likely could have turned into players remotely as good?

    Reiss made some good points in his ESPN column yesterday about this same subject. The draft is always going to be a crapshoot (we all know this). If a team wants to be in contention NOW and has holes, giving up picks for proven and experienced NFL players sometimes is the best way to go.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  7. PATRIOTS-80

    PATRIOTS-80 Rookie

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    True, but the other teams are only willing to trade proven and experienced players for a reason.

    For Welker, we stole him on a RFA tender offer.
    For Moss, a lot of people thought he was done. Hence the 4th round value.
  8. Armchair Quarterback

    Armchair Quarterback Rookie

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    Welker was traded for not signed as a RFA.
  9. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Living in the past can be fun, but occasional visits to the "now" of "today" have value too.
  10. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    FA is how the team won in 2001, 2003 and 2004. If that's not a good way to build the team, perhaps using more of the bad way is in order?
  11. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Excellent. Now class, moving on to 2010, which team building options offer the best return on value in the remainder of the offseason? You choices are Free Agency, Trade, and Draft. Keep your essays under 10,000 words. Begin. :)
  12. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    Very right.

    On the other hand, I'm all for trading a 4th rder for Larry Fitzgerald.
  13. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    "Teacher, I have a question: Do we have to pick just one option, or can we choose more than one?" :confused3:
  14. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    All options will be exploited to their fullest, but given the situation as it stands today in terms of talent and applicability to what we know NE likes to do, where is it likely they will find the best opportunity to rebuild? Gold star for asking a good question. ;)
  15. DonBlackmon55

    DonBlackmon55 Rookie

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    ummmm
    SB champs NO Saints would disagree as recent most example.
  16. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Isn't he the DE from Kansas State? Oops, my bad, that's Jeffrey.
  17. DonBlackmon55

    DonBlackmon55 Rookie

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    Welker was traded since Kraft (BB?) did not want to be stuck with a poison pill contract, Pats or Doophins.

    He was signed as a RFA but the teams agreed to work out a "deal" so both sides were happy
  18. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Bodden and Faulk are important. Mostly because we have a need and they fill it better than the alternative.
    Green, Watson and Burgess are all expendable and replaceable. I can take or leave each of them. Watson would be first on that list, and Green and Burgess would be in the wings but more out the door than in, IMO.
  19. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I fear dimensia is setting in with you.
    In 2001, we signed a ton of low level FAs to fill out the roster.
    2003 and 2004 were teams built most heavily through the draft, and in a few cases trades.
    Who were all these FAs that we built the team with in 03-04?
  20. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Teacher, teacher..me, me i know....The Draft :bricks:
  21. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Please explain?
  22. Mike the Brit

    Mike the Brit Minuteman Target PatsFans.com Supporter

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    All three have their pitfalls and, before starting, it's best to be clear what the disadvantages are of each. In all three cases, the team looking to improve faces disadvantages because of imperfect information.

    This is clearest, of course, in the case of "Trade", where the team faces a classic form of information asymmetry (see Stiglitz, J.). In a trade the "selling" team has a much, much better idea of the strengths and weaknesses of the player than the "buying" one. Even (by common consent) the worst-managed franchise in the NFL has managed to get the better of two recent trades with the Patriots (Gabriel, Burgess) -- although obviously being bested in a third.

    In Free Agency, there is a similar effect (the club that has allowed the player to get to the open market is in a vastly superior epistemic position -- if the player has reached free agency, the first question to ask must always be: why?). Add to that, the effects of imperfect information are not uniform, so someone will always be at the optimistic end of the spectrum. The result is that, in free agency, someone will (almost) always overpay and so the cost of free agent signings is in almost all cases excessive.

    Finally, the draft is, notoriously, extremely uncertain -- inevitably, given the gulf between the College version of the game and the NFL. In this case, the uncertainty is not unevenly distributed, so the drafting team is not intrinsically at a disadvantage vis-a-vis a competitor in the way that the acquiring team in a trade or free agency is. But -- and it's a big "but" -- it is rare for teams to get major benefit from new draft picks in Year One. This varies with the complexity and distinctiveness of the playbook and schemes used. Clearly, Miami was able to use its rookie corners very effectively, as were the Colts their wide receivers. New England, it seems, for whatever reason, cannot slot in even successful draft picks so easily.

    So:

    All three methods of trying to improve a team have fundamental disadvantages. The best position to be in is not to be having to do so and the way to do that is to concentrate your resources on signing those players you think are of a "good enough" standard as early as possible for as long as possible, rather than deluding yourself that it will be easy to substitute or upgrade via free agency, trade or the draft. Otherwise, you risk ending up letting decent players go and replacing them with ones who are less satisfactory (thus: do not keep Kelley Washington or Jabar Gaffney, bring in Joey Galloway, Greg Lewis, end up with Isaiah Stamback; bring in Alex Smith, Michael Mathews, Chris Baker, release Dave Thomas, end up with ... nobody)

    Respectfully submitted,

    Mike
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  23. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is one of the slimest UFA groups in recent years due to the changes in the CBA, and because of the fact that many college players have left early to avoid what they precieve to be a rookie salary cap next year, focusing in on signing your own players, especially in a year when you can give them front loaded money without a cap, and investing heavily in the draft would seem wise. The Pats have already accomplished their biggest goal in re-signing Big Vince, they have alos not opened up an immeadiate hole in the OL, by re-signing Neal, so hopefully the Pats can re-sign Bodden, and maybe if he doesn't get his price out in the FA world, Watson, the Pats can enter the draft with 4 of the first 53 picks, ammo in an extra first round pick next year (freeing up the Pats 2011 1st rounder, if they really want to make a splash) 11 draft picks in all.

    If the Pats sign Bodden and come out of the secod round of the draft with 2 DE/OLBs (Graham, Sapp, Dunlap, Kimble), RB (Spiller/Best), TE (Gresham, Hernandez, Gronkowski) plus another BPA they will easily be the team to be in the AFC East. AND STILL THEY WILL HAVE PICKS IN THE 4TH, 6TH (2), 7TH (5) for flyers (cough, cough, Blount) a Punter, and depth.
  24. DonBlackmon55

    DonBlackmon55 Rookie

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    Rodney Harrison, Christian Fauria, Je'rod Cherry, Don Davis, Bobby Hamilton, Larry Izzo, Roman Phifer, Anthony Pleasant, Tyrone Poole, Antwain Smith, Roosevelt Colvin, Josh Miller, David Patten, Keith Traylor, Mike Vrabel

    say hello. FA and Draft both were used to strengthen the roster with depth.
  25. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    Are you going to even be alive in 2015 when this great draft haul that BB no doubt is going to reel in is going to rejuvinate the franchise? ;)

    Seriously, if we stand pat in FA, BB has to hit one out of the park in the draft or we're not going to sniff another Lombardi while Brady and BB are still here.
  26. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    That is how it started but wound up as a trade when Kraft got involved and added a 7th round pick if I recall. It was a trade in the end.
    DW Tiys
  27. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    Thank You, both are tools and a reasonable person would use every means at his disposal to strengthen the team.
  28. primetime

    primetime Rookie

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    Bargain free agents. There was no Julius Peppers amongst the free agent signings in those years. Rosevelt Colvin was the closest thing, and he was considered good but hardly a marquee name; I'm pretty sure the Bears just paid 30 year old rotational back Chester Taylor more than the Patriots paid Colvin. Colvin himself didn't help much anyways in the Super Bowl years thanks to injury.

    Even Randy Moss was a bargain, a 4th round pick and next to no money on a 1 year deal. The big signings were Donte Stallworth (though he was on what was essentially a 1 year deal) and Adalius Thomas, which backfired.

    The Colts, Steelers, and Chargers build their teams almost exclusively through the draft. The Saints built their team almost exclusively through the draft and bargain trades (Brees). Signing Julius Peppers for huge money is an act of desperation, not competition. There's also no need to have 3 superstar wide receivers anywhere but in Madden; a Gaffney-type is going to be just as effective as Boldin.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
  29. Armchair Quarterback

    Armchair Quarterback Rookie

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    Whatever the backstory was, he was not signed as a RFA, he was acquired through a trade.
  30. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Just pulling names off of the Patriots official site:

    2000:

    Otis Smith
    Bobby Hamilton
    Joe Andruzzi


    2001:

    Antowain Smith
    Mike Vrabel
    Anthony Pleasant
    Roman Pfifer
    David Patten
    Larry Izzo
    Marc Edwards
    Mike Compton

    Official New England Patriots - History - Free Agents

    Is it your position that these players weren't major parts of that 2001 Super Bowl winning team, and that none of them were involved in 2003 or 2004?


    2002:

    Christian Fauria and a bunch of stiffs, including the unlamented Steve Martin. What happened in 2002? Oh, yes.... the team missed the playoffs.

    2003:

    Rodney Harrison
    Larry Centers
    Rosevelt Colvin
    Russ Hochstein
    Tyrone Poole


    2004:

    Keith Traylor
    Josh Miller

    Care to opine as to whether such players were a big part of the 2003-2004 Super Bowl seasons?

    Andy, I know you're a homer. I actually appreciate that, because all sides are needed to make the board work. However, you've really lost your mind over the past couple of seasons, and the post of yours to which I'm responding here pretty much confirms it.
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