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Lombardi on Seymour trade

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by SVN, Sep 7, 2009.

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  1. SVN

    SVN Rookie

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  2. JD10367

    JD10367 Rookie

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    We saw Pryor run with the 1s in preseason. Brace is looking promising. Green and Wright are very capable backups/spot-starters (Green in particular, who in the past has shown nice flashes). Even without adding a player, the Pats will approach Seymour's absence with a "DL by committee" approach. They'll even have TBC and Burgess up there for certain formations, I'm sure. If everyone stays healthy, they can compensate for his loss. It will be interesting when we review this gamble at the end of the season to see if it paid off or not. All I know is, Belichick would be a hell of a lot of fun to watch, if you sent him to Foxwoods with a stack of black chips... :D
  3. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I found this even more interesting:

  4. Fencer

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    Re [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]At first, this deal was being framed around a two in 2010, but it moved to a one because the Raiders wanted to keep their draft alive next year.

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]If he's right that the Pats were willing to trade Seymour for, say, two 2nds, that somewhat (not entirely) supports mgteich's perception of the value the Pats were willing to accept for him.


    [/FONT]
  5. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If he's right, it also completely undercuts all the claims that the 2011 pick was based on the likelihood of a rookie pay scale, or that it shows that the Pats expect a lockout.
  6. farn

    farn Rookie

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    There is so much speculation... it is impossible to know the truth, because BB is the Fort Knox of coaches. That's why we like him (not because he's pretty, obv).
  7. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's kind of fun to read all the quotes from anonymous "league sources" trying to read deep into the BB tea leaves. :)

    Here's what we can say with authority:

    - Bill Belichick traded Richard Seymour, and did not trade Vince Wilfork.
    - Bill Belichick thinks Oakland's #1 pick in 2011 is worth more than Richard Seymour's 2009 season + a potential comp pick.
  8. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    If anyone had thoughts that would get us nearer the truth, it would be Mike.

    His objective view of Seymour and that little note about Pryor causing phone calls, are solid parts to an article by someone I think always brings good insight and objectivity to football analysis.
  9. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That was one 2nd not two.
  10. PrairiePat

    PrairiePat Rookie

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    Lombardi says the exact thing that always comes to mind when I think of Seymour - when he was on/motivated/whatever, he was a force out there. But many games he seemed totally invisible as well. I could usually tell early in the game; Seymour would be in the offensive backfield all the time on his 'good' days, it seemed.

    I don't know for sure the problem was entirely Seymour's motivation either; maybe it was the scheme the Pats were playing vs some opponents, maybe it was the opposing OL, who really knows. But his play seemed awfully inconsistent to me.
  11. PatsFan37

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    Good point. I assume a good player is defined as much by his consistency as his talent, and Seymour was more than good. Just as double-covering Moss can take him out of a game, double-teaming Seymour with two good players can take him out. Lombardi knows more about player evaluation than most of the hacks out there, but still, he has a column to write today and how much preparation could he really put into it? How much film did he watch?

    The fact remains that Big Sey was a guy who had to be game-planned when healthy. A healthy Seymour, a healthy Warren, and a healthy Wilfork was a fearsome line. They're all healthy right now, right at this moment. Scary, when you think about it and now less so.

    We'll miss this guy.

    Good as Wright, Green, Brace, and Pryor might be, you can only field one RDE at a time and none are anywhere as good as Seymour.

    To Patchick's point, we still don't know if BB ever wanted to trade Wilfork to anyone at any time. Though we know BB didn't trade Wilfork, we shouldn't infer anything from that (not that you did).
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  12. mcsully

    mcsully Rookie

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    That pick, as one high-level NFL executive told me Sunday, might be the replacement for Tom Brady down the line.

    My brother and I were talking about this..

    Its two years away and if there is a rookie scale in place, the Pats (if there is a QB deserving of the pick) could draft their replacement for Brady.. Have him sit two years and by that time in year 3, Tom would be 37 and the new kid would be ready.. Just a thought..
  13. Captain Cliche

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    Nice article...clear, concise, some inside info...no drama, no agneda, no, "hey everybody look at me, I'm a sports writer."
  14. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Maybe, if the Patriots are really, really lucky, the pick they got from the Raiders can be used to get a Richard Seymour kind of talent.



    Oh, wait............
  15. bigfandan

    bigfandan Rookie

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    Lombardi's version seems more solid than the Papas guy.

    Time will tell. I am not loving this move... I need to see some proof that our defense can perform at a high level without big Sey. If the D suffers as the result, then we are worse off for making the trade. Bill thinks others will step up and get the job done, we will have to wait and see.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  16. NEGoldenAge

    NEGoldenAge Banned

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    And if they do, they'll have a freakish talent on the cheap for six years..... oh wait.
  17. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Given that the expectation (pure speculation, but who cares, right) is that the pick will be a top 5 pick, that "on the cheap" wouldn't happen under the current rules.

    But, on the other hand, what's the downside of possibly losing out on a Super Bowl victory because the team weakened its defense when you can bring in a gamble 2 years later that will be 2 rounds higher than you'd get without making the trade, and you can hope that the salaries have been adjusted, the player is as good as a Hall of Famer, and there won't be any drop in play evidenced by players like Moss and Brady?
  18. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They could also draft Brady's replacement in 2011 in the 6th round or in 2013 in the 7th or find an overlooked UDFA in 2014... Bill has little reason to go looking for developmental QB's any higher than the 5th... Baring additional unforseen injury Brady is good to go thru 2016 or so. Using a 1st on a QB, let alone prematurely, would be a colossal waste of capital.

    But that is a reality few other high level NFL executives have yet been able to wrap their heads around.
  19. NEGoldenAge

    NEGoldenAge Banned

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    Top picks will make less under the new CBA as it makes sense for both the NFLPA and the NFL. Unless everything I've read on the subject is false, this is something that BOTH sides will address in negotiations.

    I was simply replying to your notion that we might get a telent as good as Seymour... that was your words, not mine. If we do, he will be MUCH cheaper than Sey whether the NFLPA has a change of heart or not.

    It seemd clear that you were mocking the idea that a 2011 Raiders first round pick wasn't good value for Sey, by saying that the Pats just might get a player of similar talent. I simply added a little context. You did know that he playing on 3rd downs, right?
  20. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    On the cheap compared to paying Seymour? Of course it will happen.

    No pick, not even the first pick in the draft, will cost more than Seymour would. And Seymour is not likely to give 6 years of All-pro effort.

    Everyone, probably even NEM, has acknowledged that the Pats cannot pay both SEymour and WIlfork, and that of the two, Wilfork is the more valuable. Add all the complaints about our D over the last two-three years, and the effect that one top-ten pick had, I am amazed that anyone would not like to trade a year of Seymour for 5-6 years of hot new DL talent to pair with Wilfork.
  21. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why not, it represented tremendous value for the first 4 years. Although not nearly enough to warrant $30M over the last 3.
  22. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Some of us actually think things through before just genuflecting in the general direction of Bill Belichick. When we do that, we realize the problems with this trade. Those of you who prefer to just drop to your knees in homage and chug the Koolaid without bothering to check on it first are free to do so.

    By the way, you should check into the numbers that those top picks got. You end up paying top dollar for hopes and prayers.

    One of the amusing ironies of all this is watching people who were defending the Patriots not getting a first round pick for Cassel, and who were defending the way the team dropped down out of the first round in the last draft, both on money arguments, are now trying to act as if the money of a top pick is no big deal. So, thanks for that chuckle.

    The Koolaid crew has been a seemingly bottomless supply of irony and humor when it comes to this trade.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  23. NEGoldenAge

    NEGoldenAge Banned

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    Your insight into football is pretty good. Unfortunately your insight into people and their motivations is not. Lumpin most people into a group, and arguing with them as though they share all the opinons of that group is not a good thing.

    Oh, BTW, most fans of other teams and analysts are calling this great value for Sey. I'm pretty sure most of them aren't drinking the Kool-Aide.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  24. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1.) Most people are rating this trade based upon it being the Patriots and the Raiders. Anyone who takes the time to think about it in a rational, objective manner, sees the inherent issues in the trade. Some still favor it, and others don't. The key point is that all it takes is a moment of rational thought to see the potential negatives of this deal. Unfortunately, far too many people are like the current idiot caller on the radio, who's citing Seymour's never having double digit sacks as some proof that he's "one of the most overrated Patriots players ever". The willingness to blindly follow BB and to just chuck former players on to the trash pile the moment they're no longer a part of the team is simply something I refuse to participate in.

    2.) Nobody I've seen who is worth reading or listening to has suggested, for even a moment, that this deal doesn't hurt the Patriots this season.

    3.) Your comment about motivations is wrong, and I'll leave it at that.
  25. flasox27

    flasox27 Rookie

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    Kraft and BB are smarter than you give them credit for. The draft pick is in the 2011 draft when a cap on the draft picks salary is likely so the cost for the high picks isn't as exhorbitant as it its now. Otherwise the Pats will just trade down as they did when they got Mayo.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  26. NEGoldenAge

    NEGoldenAge Banned

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    I never suggested that trading Seymour doesn't make the Patriots defense a little weaker this year. See what I mean?
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  27. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I never said you did. You're reading into my posts. I'm not reading into yours.
  28. NEGoldenAge

    NEGoldenAge Banned

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    Oops, I misread this statement
    "Nobody I've seen who is worth reading or listening to has suggested, for even a moment, that this deal doesn't hurt the Patriots this season."

    Misread, not read into. My bad.
  29. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    2011. Go ahead and plan on the draft slot rules being exactly what they are today.

    Keep buying stocks based on what they did YESTERDAY.

    Too many Americans do that. It's why we'll have to learn Chinese soon.

    BB plays chess while the rest of the league plays checkers. Evidently, you're a huge checkers fan.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  30. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course it hurts the Patriots THIS season.

    If they gave the Raiders a ham sandwich on rye with nothing immediate for return, the organization would have been lessesned by a ham sandwich on rye.

    In the meantime, the Patriots are VERY deep on the DL. Seymour, while still a very good (though not as great as he was 4 years ago) player ids not a MUST on the Patriots DL at this time.

    Immediate gratification is the realm of Daniel Snyder. I get to watch that up close here in Maryland. It's hugely entertaining.
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