Logan Mankins Traded

[Nunchucks]

Wait, why is Tim Wright untested? He did play against Seattle, San Francisco, Arizona, St Louis and New Orleans (twice) and Carolina (twice) last year.

Untested in the Patriots offense. That is what I mean by untested. I have seen too many receivers come in here and fail, to just pencil him in.....I just don't go that route....I am more of a show me guy.

 

[Bruins29]

something else. Really doesn't matter. Belichick waited too long to move him - trade him a year earlier and you may be looking at a 1st/2nd rounder in return instead of the marginal return the Patriots got for him now.

I can buy some of what you wrote but not this. And if he is as great as some claim then his services were needed.

I dont call what they got Marginal for someone who probably would not be here next year any everyone knew it. It was a good deal considering the needs and factors. People just have to get over a decline in a LG position (assuming there is even one) is a necessary evil to sign other players, have more money to do more things, and to get talented players like Wright.

Like him or not, he put up numbers better than Gronk or Hernandez with a **** QB.

 

[goheels22002]

Two things I dont agree with in the article.

The spare parts comment is silly. Spare parts? Sorry, every team has some sort of a spare part or JAG or what we might call an up and coming player at some position. A team with Brady, Vollmer, Mayo, Wilfork, Edelman, Gronk, Revis and Dmac is going to have to accept that some of the other positions are not going to have superstars. Its pick your poison.

The comment about losing when it counts is ridiculous. Injuries have played a huge role in the playoff record of this team. It is part of the game obviously but the context of the article just removes that from the equation and you cant.

Last paragraph of the Andrew Sharp piece in Grantland Rice:

"One day we might make a distinction between the two when we talk about how to remember him. Especially if we look back at a team that won three Super Bowls in four years and stayed near the top, but never won another title while they got rid of key players every year, relying on a bunch of spare parts to the machine going. (Remember Reche Caldwell in the 2005 AFC title game?)"

No recognition of making it to two more Super Bowls. Winning 11 of the last 13 AFC East Division titles is cast off earlier in the piece as unimportant because the AFC East sucks. The AFC East sucks because the coaches of the other franchises turn over frequently, and young players aren't given a chance to develop because they can't beat the Patriots nor make the playoffs. It's a vicious cycle.

The spare parts crack is supported by the presence of Reche Caldwell in the 2005 AFC Championship game ten years ago?!? Roger that.

Enough credit is never given to teams that let their aging expensive superstars go once they're on the down slope. The 49ers (now and in the DeBartolo years), the Steelers, the Patriots, the Giants and the Eagles have sustained competitiveness because they stay young and ship their stars off to teams like the Raiders and the Redskins who are awful at managing their salary cap, and embrace these expensive stars for the headlines they produce when they get them.

 

[Bruins29]

Its a **** article written by someone with limited knowledge on how things work. Par for the course.

 

[mayoclinic]

My problem with the trade is that Belichick waited too long to do it. With others, he had the foresight to maximize return and move players before they hit their regression point. Mankins went from a top, elite guard to a better than average (at least in the running game, probably below average in the passing game) guard last year. I'd say that transformation started even before last year. I don't know if his decreased performance was because of injuries, age, or something else. Really doesn't matter. Belichick waited too long to move him - trade him a year earlier and you may be looking at a 1st/2nd rounder in return instead of the marginal return the Patriots got for him now.

That may be true in retrospect. However, I think that a couple of things likely precluded this. First the Pats didn't have as many options to replace Mankins in the past; the development of Kline and/or Cannon, plus the rookie additions, may have been a significant factor in the Pats' willingness to move on from Mankins. Second, it may have taken up to now for the Pats to realize that Mankins was on a sharp decline. Mankins battled injuries the past several years, and the Pats probably hoped that those were a major factor in some of his play. This offseason he was reportedly healthy for the first time in a while, and the Pats may have realized that his pass blocking and lateral mobility had simply deteriorated. Third, Scar's loyalty might have been a significant obstacle to trading Mankins. Finally, I doubt that anyone really was willing to give the Pats a 1st/2nd round pick for Mankins - if they and, I suspect BB could have seriously considered it.

 

[VrabelJr]

Untested in the Patriots offense. That is what I mean by untested. I have seen too many receivers come in here and fail, to just pencil him in.....I just don't go that route....I am more of a show me guy.

The notion that it's hard for receivers to learn our offense is pretentious bologna created by fans of this forum. What receivers have come here, failed and gone on to success else where? We just flat out haven't had good receivers. If Tim Wright is a good receiver/TE, he will get on the field and get balls thrown his way.

 

[Rob0729]

The notion that it's hard for receivers to learn our offense is pretentious bologna created by fans of this forum. What receivers have come here, failed and gone on to success else where? We just flat out haven't had good receivers. If Tim Wright is a good receiver/TE, he will get on the field and get balls thrown his way.

We are also talking about a TE coming from a system similar to the Pats' offense. TE's do not have as complicated a playbook as WRs do. There are less presnap read options and less routes. And the Pats certainly give him a package of 12 or so plays while he gets up to speed.

If he was a WR from a completely different system, I would be more worried.

 

[condon84]

Correct, because with some of you logic has gone out the window in favor of some strange loyalty and sentimental feelings.

Oh well.

No because some of you guys are not looking at this objectively.

What has history told us about new receivers in this offense? Without earning Brady's trust, these guys don't get much passes thrown their way. It's not an indicative of their physical ability, but whether they have enough of Brady's trust. That is what we've seen over the years with rookies, FA signings etc. (With the exception of Moss and Welker, who are both HOF players and who came into a team bereft of true receiving threats.)

Wright is coming into a team with solid #1-3 receivers, and another 2 Brady has had time to develop a chemistry with through training camp. Will Wright get passes his way, probably,

Mankins was/is an All-Pro level guard, and apparently someone a lot of people looked to for leadership within the team.

How is Wright's impact of the team this year going to mean more of what Mankins would have done?

 

[mayoclinic]

The notion that it's hard for receivers to learn our offense is pretentious bologna created by fans of this forum. What receivers have come here, failed and gone on to success else where? We just flat out haven't had good receivers. If Tim Wright is a good receiver/TE, he will get on the field and get balls thrown his way.

I agree with some of this. But I think that the view that it's hard for receivers to learn our system is based more on the number of receivers who have had success elsewhere and who have come to our system and struggled with it. Moss and Welker are really the only 2 who have thrived. Again, I agree with much of what you say, but I think that Brady is quite demanding, our offense does require Brady and his WRs to be very closely on the same page and discourages freelancing, and the playbook is quite complex, so not everyone is going to be a good fit.

 

[Rob0729]

No because some of you guys are not looking at this objectively.

What has history told us about new receivers in this offense? Without earning Brady's trust, these guys don't get much passes thrown their way. It's not an indicative of their physical ability, but whether they have enough of Brady's trust. That is what we've seen over the years with rookies, FA signings etc. (With the exception of Moss and Welker, who are both HOF players and who came into a team bereft of true receiving threats.)

Wright is coming into a team with solid #1-3 receivers, and another 2 Brady has had time to develop a chemistry with through training camp.

Now Mankins was/is an All-Pro level guard, and apparently someone a lot of people looked to for leadership within the team.

So you are not alone in not looking at this objectively. You prove that by stating Mankins is an All Pro Level guard. He is a still a good guard, but the only reason he gets voted All Pro is by name alone. He is probably isn't even in the top 10 guards.

You do realize that in a month into the season, Wright will have as much time with Brady as he would have had in camp? So why is it that after a slower start that in October and November that he could get a significant role in the offense?

 

[condon84]

Why is not worth discussing? The guy caught 54 balls last year. Him getting 70 balls is not a crazy potential. Not saying he will, but he has the potential. If he catches 40 balls, he will make this offense better.

Let's say Brady has 400 completions this year (definitely not out of the question since two QBs had more last year and the new rules/emphasis will probably have more QBs doing it). If Wright caught 70 balls, that is only 17.5% of the offense. Not a huge amount if he became the third or fourth leading receiver. If he gets 40 balls, it is only 10% of the passes which is not a huge amount if he is the fourth or fifth option. I think 70 is his high end with 40 being his low end.

Funny, I entertained your ridiculous claim that Wright will never get passes because Brady doesn't trust him more than eight guys on the roster. Brady stops throwing to receivers that shows him that he cannot trust like Ochocinco who he threw to a lot early in the season. He just doesn't ignore a receiver without giving him a chance if he is open.

This thread will be bumped at the end of the year and we will assess both players production.

 

[VrabelJr]

I agree with some of this. But I think that the view that it's hard for receivers to learn our system is based more on the number of receivers who have had success elsewhere and who have come to our system and struggled with it. Moss and Welker are really the only 2 who have thrived. Again, I agree with much of what you say, but I think that Brady is quite demanding, our offense does require Brady and his WRs to be very closely on the same page and discourages freelancing, and the playbook is quite complex, so not everyone is going to be a good fit.

I take the failures of the vets more due to age than our system. We were the last team in the NFL for a lot of the vets we've brought around recently. In the case of Chad Johnson it was him playing in a system for his entire career that was designed entirely around him. Even if he had a brain, (he doesn't) he was never asked to use it in Cincinnati. He never did anything after his stop here anyway. Maybe the media should start spinning New England as WR killers?

I do agree that Brady does expect a lot of his receivers though. I think WRs coming here should find that motivating though.

 

[Ring 6]

We are also talking about a TE coming from a system similar to the Pats' offense. TE's do not have as complicated a playbook as WRs do. There are less presnap read options and less routes. And the Pats certainly give him a package of 12 or so plays while he gets up to speed.

If he was a WR from a completely different system, I would be more worried.

TEs dont have as complicated a play book as WRs???????????????????????????

 

[goheels22002]

Please tell me about other teams that respect bloated underachieving (relative to salary) veteran contracts so I can learn about how big a negotiating disadvantage this is to the Pats. Please name the teams since you clearly know which ones they are.

Sometimes I can't believe the stuff I read on this forum!

The Raiders and the Redskins love bloated veteran contracts, and they have the results to show for it.

Al Davis, God rest his twisted soul, had operators standing by to take on your aging veterans with ridiculous contracts. Bill Belichick must have shed a tear the day he erased Al Davis from his Friends and Family speed dial list.

 

[Rob0729]

I agree with some of this. But I think that the view that it's hard for receivers to learn our system is based more on the number of receivers who have had success elsewhere and who have come to our system and struggled with it. Moss and Welker are really the only 2 who have thrived. Again, I agree with much of what you say, but I think that Brady is quite demanding, our offense does require Brady and his WRs to be very closely on the same page and discourages freelancing, and the playbook is quite complex, so not everyone is going to be a good fit.

I think a lot of the problems with WRs picking up the system has more to do with Belichick's poor GM decisions. Guys like Ochocinco, Donald Hayes, and Joey Galloway were either too stupid or unwilling to put in the work to understand the playbook. Can anyone name a WR who sucked here and went somewhere else and became a good WR after they left?

Dobson, Branch, and Thompkins picked up the system fairly quickly (with some hiccups).

 

[Bruins29]

I Agree with a lot of that especially the leadership. But a couple of you are overlooking Wrights accomplishments, future potential, the benefit of have extra cash to do other things, never mind the pick next year which is not a big factor.

A better team with a worse LG is still a better team. A team with no move TE is still a team without a move TE. And we got what looks like a great one - who will get better and gave up nothing in our future.

That is objective. Teams have to move on from Great players to adequate ones in various potions all the time to stay competitive. Especially when you have glaring holes (TE), the ability to cater to your best players strength (short/mid game) and a changing league (dont touch the receivers)

Also, for all the preaching about all these great targets we have: DA and JE have ONE healthy season between them. AD has not seen the field yet and lets face it as solid as he was is still not a legit #1 guy yet. , Gronk has been injured recently a lot. KT is a big hopeful, LaFell is a castoff who looked good in training camp????? Camp!

Lets not all act like Wright is trying to crack the 2007 starting lineup. As much as there is potential with our receiving group there is just as much history showing it will be a mess.

 

[Rob0729]

TEs dont have as complicated a play book as WRs???????????????????????????

They don't run the rote tree most WRs do. It all depends on how they are used. Hernandez in 2012 had a more complicated one working as both an H-Back and TE.

 

[condon84]

I Agree with a lot of that especially the leadership. But a couple of you are overlooking Wrights accomplishments, future potential, the benefit of have extra cash to do other things, never mind the pick next year which is not a big factor.

A better team with a worse LG is still a better team. A team with no move TE is still a team without a move TE. And we got what looks like a great one - who will get better and gave up nothing in our future.

That is objective. Teams have to move on from Great players to adequate ones in various potions all the time to stay competitive. Especially when you have glaring holes (TE), your best players strength (short/mid game) and a changing league (dont touch the receivers)

Also, for all the preaching about all these great targets we have: DA and JE have ONE healthy season between them. AD has not seen the field yet and lets face it as solid as he was is still not a legit #1 guy yet. , Gronk has been injured recently a lot. KT is a big hopeful, LaFell is a castoff who looked good in training camp????? Camp!

Lets not all act like Wright is trying to crack the 2007 starting lineup. As much as there is potential with our receiving group there is just as much history showing it will be a mess.

Like I said to Robo above, we will bump this thread at the end of the year and see who was being silly.

Robo said 70 receptions.

What do you think?

I say less than 30.

Mankins makes another Pro-Bowl.

 

[Rob0729]

This thread will be bumped at the end of the year and we will assess both players production.

Why bother? You already declared the trade a bust. Why revisit it? You "objectively" looked at the situation and determined that there is no way Wright can be productive in this offense, Mankins still plays at an All Pro level (even though he hasn't in 2-3 years), and his replacement is going to suck. Why bother continuing to analyze this trade after the season when we are smacked with all this objectivity before the season starts?

 

[mayoclinic]

Like I said to Robo above, we will bump this thread at the end of the year and see who was being silly.

Robo said 70 receptions.

What do you think?

I say less than 30.

Mankins makes another Pro-Bowl.

Rob said it was POSSIBLE. I agree with that, though I think it's unlikely given that Wright hasn't had an offseason to get familiar with the system or on the same page with Brady. I'm not going to make a prediction until I get a sense of how Wright is adjusting and how he develops with TB, but I think your 30 is on the low side. Given what Thompkins and Dobson produced last year, I think that is a reasonably starting point for Wright this year given his late arrival. I also don't think Mankins is anywhere near a Pro Bowl caliber guard at this point, though the Pro Bowl is based more on reputation than play (he wasn't Pro Bowl caliber last year, either).