Logan Mankins and the run game

[Ring 6]

Didn't show it in the Browns game.

For the Patriots to win tonights game, they need "play-action". This is predicated by the run.

Steelers are tops against the run.

With Fred (My toe hurts) Taylor, out. You only have BJGE, which had 1 good game, and went into hibernation, we are in trouble. You simply cannot put all the burden on Brady's arm, especially against the Steelers.

OC needs to mix it up in the plays. They are too predictable..

Green-Ellis has games of 16-98, 16-76 and 17-112. Dont know how thats 1 good game. And is one poor game really a 'hibernation'? His 112 was the game before last.
We also have Woodhead who has run 45-232 5.2 in 6 games.
That works out to 120-619 over a 16 game schedule. How is that irrelevant?
Brady is 5-1 vs Pitt in his career. Care to guess at our running stats in those games?

 

[shmessy]

What number are you using to say 7mill more than? Surely not the number we would be paying his replacement for the next 5 years.

Mankins has never missed a game aside from his contract dispute. If he is signed long term that circumstance wouldnt exist.

Left Guard is not worth that money. Simple as that. We won 3 Super Bowls with Joe Freaking Andruzzi.

We went 6-1 without Mankins this year. The sky didn't fall.

The Patriots have some glaring needs. That ain't one of 'em.

Truth? Going forward, Our OL has bigger need areas - - I'd rather pick up a top-5 LT or C for that kind of money. Or a monster DE. For a left guard without whom we've gone 6-1 this year? No.

 

[Ring 6]

Left Guard is not worth that money. Simple as that. We won 3 Super Bowls with Joe Freaking Andruzzi.

We went 6-1 without Mankins this year. The sky didn't fall.

The Patriots have some glaring needs. That ain't one of 'em.

Truth? Going forward, Our OL has bigger need areas - - I'd rather pick up a top-5 LT or C for that kind of money. Or a monster DE. For a left guard without whom we've gone 6-1 this year? No.

I disagree, and apparently the Patriots do too, since they offered that money.
Its a ridiculous argument to say we don't need a good player at X position because we won without one.
For example, you say we have all of these holes, but we were 6-1 with them.

 

[crowell33]

Grading OL is always a bit tricky, but not sure what makes you think he's a bad run blocker. If you look at the OL stats from Football Outsiders, the Patriots have consistently been in the top 10 in run blocking:

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2010 OFFENSIVE LINES

In 2005, they weren't very good. But they improved to 12th in 2006, and have been a top-10 team since. If you look at the breakdown of yards per run based on direction, the left tackle and mid-guard positions are consistently higher than running to the right side during this time, which means at the very least, Mankins wasn't hurting the team.

Here's one article from ProFootballFocus that also gave him high marks:

Should they pay or should he go? Logan Mankins

However, I will agree that he was awful in the run game against Cleveland. And PFF also agreed, grading him at -4.6 for that game. But one bad game doesn't mean he's sucked his entire career. If that's the case, then BB is a moron and Tom Brady is a JAG.

I gotta give Mankins a little break here. Anyone who misses all of the offseason conditioning program, all of training camp, all of the exhibition season, and half the regular season, is going to play awful.

I think the hope is that he, avoids injury and gradually plays himself into football shape over the next month or two, and is peaking by playoff time.

 

[shmessy]

I disagree, and apparently the Patriots do too, since they offered that money.
Its a ridiculous argument to say we don't need a good player at X position because we won without one.
For example, you say we have all of these holes, but we were 6-1 with them.

I'll just agree to disagree with that.

Next year (or the following year), when there is a cap, allocation will be meaningful.

Would I love for the Patriots to be able to spend more than anyone else to have the greatest and most expensive LG in the NFL? You bet. But this isn't Major League Baseball.

The Patriots have bigger glaring needs. It all comes down to prioritzation.

I'm sorry, but I have LT, C, DE, RB (maybe 2) all at higher priorities for spending the big bucks for the Patriots.

 

[crowell33]

I'll just agree to disagree with that.

Next year (or the following year), when there is a cap, allocation will be meaningful.

Would I love for the Patriots to be able to spend more than anyone else to have the greatest and most expensive LG in the NFL? You bet. But this isn't Major League Baseball.

The Patriots have bigger glaring needs. It all comes down to prioritzation.

I'm sorry, but I have LT, C, DE, RB (maybe 2) all at higher priorities for spending the big bucks for the Patriots.

Recall that Ty Warren will return next season at DE. I also think that Volmer returns to his natural LT position next year. Maybe a RT upgrade over Kaczur instead ?

 

[Ring 6]

I'll just agree to disagree with that.

Next year (or the following year), when there is a cap, allocation will be meaningful.

Would I love for the Patriots to be able to spend more than anyone else to have the greatest and most expensive LG in the NFL? You bet. But this isn't Major League Baseball.

The Patriots have bigger glaring needs. It all comes down to prioritzation.

I'm sorry, but I have LT, C, DE, RB (maybe 2) all at higher priorities for spending the big bucks for the Patriots.

How can you agree to disagree with a fact?
The Patriots did offer Mankins that contract, you can't aggee to disagree with that.
And then you disagree that its ridiculous to say we dont need a good player at any position where we won without one in the past?
Then we don't need a LT (Kaczur) LG (you say Andruzzi sucked) C (Compton) RG (Hochstien) RT (Klemm, GRR, Ashworth) TE (2001s crew) WR (2001s crew among others) RB (Smith, some say Maroney) and we can go get a first year QB since we won Bradys first year.
Same can be done on the defensive side with a lineup of
DE- Pleasant and Hamilton
DT- Brandon Mitchell
OLB- Matt Chatham, Pieere Woods
ILB- Ted Johnson, Monte Beisel
CB- Otis Smith, Earthwind Moreland. Troy Brown
S- Tebucky Jones, Matt Stevens, Ray Ventrone (in a SB)

How can you agree to disagree that I can apply your 'we won with Anduzzi' to every position on the field to argue its not a ned?

 

[shmessy]

How can you agree to disagree with a fact?
The Patriots did offer Mankins that contract, you can't aggee to disagree with that.
And then you disagree that its ridiculous to say we dont need a good player at any position where we won without one in the past?
Then we don't need a LT (Kaczur) LG (you say Andruzzi sucked) C (Compton) RG (Hochstien) RT (Klemm, GRR, Ashworth) TE (2001s crew) WR (2001s crew among others) RB (Smith, some say Maroney) and we can go get a first year QB since we won Bradys first year.
Same can be done on the defensive side with a lineup of
DE- Pleasant and Hamilton
DT- Brandon Mitchell
OLB- Matt Chatham, Pieere Woods
ILB- Ted Johnson, Monte Beisel
CB- Otis Smith, Earthwind Moreland. Troy Brown
S- Tebucky Jones, Matt Stevens, Ray Ventrone (in a SB)

How can you agree to disagree that I can apply your 'we won with Anduzzi' to every position on the field to argue its not a ned?

Where did I say "Andruzzi sucked"?

Look, your straw man arguments and putting words in other peoples' mouths is beneath you. You never used to do that.

Andruzzi was not the top paid guard in the NFL. That doesn't mean "he sucked".

Nothing I wrote means "we dont need a good player at any position where we won without one in the past". I'd appreciate you raising your points up from the bottom of your imagination.

Just because I believe we don't need to have the highest paid LG in the NFL, doesn't equate to the imaginary straw men you are inventing.

Further, I NEVER argued that the Patriots didn't offer Mankins that contract. Show me where I did. I just don't believe (and I'm entitled to my opinion) that anything shown this year justifies spending that kind of money on the LG position.

 

[Ring 6]

Where did I say "Andruzzi sucked"?

Look, your straw man arguments and putting words in other peoples' mouths is beneath you. You never used to do that.

Andruzzi was not the top paid guard in the NFL. That doesn't mean "he sucked".

Nothing I wrote means "we dont need a good player at any position where we won without one in the past". I'd appreciate you raising your points up from the bottom of your imagination.

Just because I believe we don't need to have the highest paid LG in the NFL, doesn't equate to the imaginary straw men you are inventing.

Further, I NEVER argued that the Patriots didn't offer Mankins that contract. Show me where I did. I just don't believe (and I'm entitled to my opinion) that anything shown this year justifies spending that kind of money on the LG position.

These were your words.

We won 3 Super Bowls with Joe Freaking Andruzzi.

I ASSUME yhe "Freaking" implies he wasnt very good,

It is not a strawman to take your opinion that we dont need a good LG becuase we won with Andruzzi and project it to say we dont' need players at other positions where we won with Andruzzi caliber players.

A strawman is to make up an argument and call it yours.

I am not doing that. I am saying If you believe we dont need Mankins because we won with Andruzzi, then I can argue we don't need any players that are real good because we won with Andruzzi caliber guys at just about every spot.

That not a strawman, that is refuting the lynchpin of your argument.
I'm not saying Mankins is the best use of that money necessarily, but the Patriots seem to believe so, and it looks to me like we will have a bunch of cap room now as well.
I am also saying that Mankins is a very good player, and keeping very good players who are reliable, consistent and always healthy is an important thing.

 

[shmessy]

I'm not saying Mankins is the best use of that money necessarily.

THAT is all I said. What's your problem with that?

I've repeatedly agreed with the opinion that he is an upgrade at the LG position, but there are other more glaring needs in a cap environment.

What a waste of time it took to get you to that.

Unbelievable.

Regarding your automatic 'assumption' that me writing "Joe Freaking Andruzzi" somehow meant that he "sucked" instead of that he was merely a journeyman, serviceable LG, earns you a lecture from Felix Unger regarding assumptions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKlWGZHEO7Q

 

[Ring 6]

THAT is all I said. What's your problem with that?

I've repeatedly agreed with the opinion that he is an upgrade at the LG position, but there are other more glaring needs in a cap environment.

What a waste of time it took to get you to that.

Unbelievable.

Regarding your automatic 'assumption' that me writing "Joe Freaking Andruzzi" somehow meant that he "sucked" instead of that he was merely a journeyman, serviceable LG, earns you a lecture from Felix Unger regarding assumptions.

YouTube - Odd Couple - "My Strife in Court" (Assume Scene)

Good job missing the point. I wasnt agreeing with you.
I said I am not arguing whether he is the best use of the money, but that the Patriots seem to think so. The point of 'necessarily' in that post, was that its not the real point I am making.
My point is that he is reliable, always healthy, and very good, and that the Patriots feel he is worth the money. That is better evidence to me of his value that 'we won with Joe Andruzzi' which has a grand total of zero value to the argument.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

the weak link is Dan Koppen. great pass blocker, suspect run blocker

 

[VJCPatriot]

Mankins isn't coming back. Get over it. The Pats will not pay the money that he wants. Also Mankins first game back was a total stinker. No cherry coating that. But it might have just been rust. I think he has more talent than he showed against the Browns. Heck the entire team is better than that. I really don't see much to argue about here. It is what it is.

 

[SuperPatsFan]

Mankins is a good player, but he's not "value" () at the guard position, so it's not likely he'll return in 2011. JMHO.

 

[Ring 6]

Mankins isn't coming back. Get over it. The Pats will not pay the money that he wants. Also Mankins first game back was a total stinker. No cherry coating that. But it might have just been rust. I think he has more talent than he showed against the Browns. Heck the entire team is better than that. I really don't see much to argue about here. It is what it is.

It seems the offer they made was what he wanted, except it included playing this year on the tender. If they offer him just what he wanted in the off-season it turns into the same thing they offered to start with.
Thats not far enough apart to say no way he is coming back.
I think it less than likely, but far from impossible

 

[Kontradiction]

the weak link is Dan Koppen. great pass blocker, suspect run blocker

What have you seen this season to make you think that Koppen is a "great" pass blocker?

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Mankins isn't coming back. Get over it. The Pats will not pay the money that he wants. Also Mankins first game back was a total stinker. No cherry coating that. But it might have just been rust. I think he has more talent than he showed against the Browns. Heck the entire team is better than that. I really don't see much to argue about here. It is what it is.

Mankins has a long track record of playing at a high level. His first game back after missing a few months of practices was bad, no question, but I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt.

As for the contract, I'm not so sure about that. A lot depends on what the new CBA may be. If Mankins thinks the cap is going to shrink in the new deal, the existing deal may appear like a lot more than by comparison. There are a lot of unknowns and factors involved, but I still don't think we can assume he's gone next season since there's so much uncertainty surrounding next season.

 

[crowell33]

the weak link is Dan Koppen. great pass blocker, suspect run blocker

Agreed. Not even sure about the great pass blocker part, but I still think that you CAN win with Koppen as your center.

 

[Pessimistic Pete]

Hey, this thread is cool.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Hey, this thread is cool.

Even for you ... Optimistic Pete.

you may have to change your name now Pete ... you're getting happy.