Linebacker - scouting the prospects

[Box_O_Rocks]

Top Five Defensive End Scouting Reports ? Draft Zoo

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Sideline Scouting - Defensive Ends

 

[VJCPatriot]

I don't get how New Era Scouting is so high on Kindle and so low on Sapp in certain areas. Like for instance, they claim Kindle has top level strength at 6'4 239, while Sapp is too weak at 6'4 242. I don't know it seems a little biased to me. I would consider Kindle and Sapp the same type of prospect. Speed edge rushers who would excel on the weak side and have good burst off the line. Both need to add some bulk. I just don't get how they compare Kindle to Ware and say Sapp is going to be overdrafted/overrated.

I wouldn't confuse size with strength. Some guys are fundamentally stronger and have more functional football strength. A good example of this is hand punch. Some guys just strike harder and better. Using proper technique always helps, but some people are just flat out stronger. I'd watch over the tape and see if Kindle looks better with the hand punch and/or bullrush moves.

If you see Kindle knocking guys back 3 yards and Sapp using more finesse or spin type moves, then I'd say they were justified in their characterization. I'll have to look at the vids myself before I can say for sure.

PS I looked at the video and read the play by play from Universal draft. They didn't sound all that complimentary about Kindle. As they mentioned, his pass rush reportoire does look rather limited. If he can't rip past the tackle with his initial move he appears to have a hard time getting by the offensive lineman. They also said that he lacked leg drive to really push guys back and collapse the pocket. I didn't really notice that, but I didn't notice him knocking guys on their butts often either. I do think he seems to have good stack and shed ability vs the run. Maybe he's more suited to be a 3-4 SILB or a 4-3 end? OR perhaps he just needs to develop his leg strength more?

PPS I actually came away really impressed after watching Jerry Hughes' video. He is lightning quick off the snap and looks like he is good at anticipating the snap count. He doesn't seem to show much variety in moves, but his speed allows him to turn the corner real fast. The concerns about his run stopping strength are valid because it appears he doesn't have very good hand technique to fight off blocks and can thus be steered out of a play. But he does have a constant leg drive that at times allows him to push the blocker backwards several yards regardless of his hand technique. Maybe with proper coaching on hand techniques and some work on his upper body, Hughes can become a complete player. His ability to move in space and recovery speed also look impressive. Did I mention that he was fast? He also seems to be a smart player football IQwise, there were several plays where he cut off his pass rush and stuck his hands up to deflect passes. He also seems good at containing the RB in one on ones to prevent cutbacks by not overpursuing. That's nice to have in a linebacker and prevents some big gainer runs.

I think Hughes has more to offer as a pure passrusher than Kindle, although Kindle might be better at stopping the run. Because of Kindle's good hand technique, he can create a good shock and maintain his position before shedding and going after the ballcarrier. But Kindle doesn't show the pure speed off the edge that Hughes does, nor the lower body strength and leg drive to push blockers backwards. They're almost polar opposites in that regard. Neither guy seems super refined in pass rush moves but Hughes is just flat out faster and more agile. I'm not sure that BB would draft Hughes though, the kid is only listed as 6'2. But he looks like an impressive pass rushing prospect from the selection of video that Universal Draft presented.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Sideline Scouting - Inside Linebackers

Sideline Scouting - Outside Linebackers

 

[larryo]

Could someone help me out and pleasd explain a hand punch? I've seen it mentioned several times and have no clue what it is. I'm a novice at this so go easy.

One more thing. In that link with the breakdowns of the defensive lineman it says great strength for Austen Lane...he benches 350. Same for Jason Worilds...he benches 385. Is this considerd a lot of weight by NFL standards. It just doesn't seem like that much considering these guys weigh 250 pounds. I guess considering they are still young maybe but throwing up that weight and weighing that much doesn't seem very impressive.

Loving all the links and commentary. Great work people. Thanks a lot.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Could someone help me out and pleasd explain a hand punch? I've seen it mentioned several times and have no clue what it is. I'm a novice at this so go easy.

One more thing. In that link with the breakdowns of the defensive lineman it says great strength for Austen Lane...he benches 350. Same for Jason Worilds...he benches 385. Is this considerd a lot of weight by NFL standards. It just doesn't seem like that much considering these guys weigh 250 pounds. I guess considering they are still young maybe but throwing up that weight and weighing that much doesn't seem very impressive.

Loving all the links and commentary. Great work people. Thanks a lot.

A hand punch is a blow to the chest plate of the shoulder pads or to the shoulder pads themselves, usually with the heal of the hand, intended to slow or stagger an opponent. An offensive lineman would use this to stand up a defensive lineman he is blocking on a run play, or to check the pass rush of a defender. If the OL can stand up the DL, it's easier to get under his pads and gain leverage to push him away from the play, ditto the pass rusher. Defenders will do this against blockers to stand them up and get under their pads so you can shed them to reach the QB or ball carrier.

If Big Country checks in perhaps he can correct any errors I've made, but this should give you a general idea. Players with a strong punch literally stun an opponent by knocking them breathless for a few moments, plenty of time to get into their chest and use the breast plate of their shoulder pads as a rudder to steer them around.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm afraid I don't pay any attention to weight room reports, I like to catch a broadcast of a game to see how the player's functional strength measures up against the kind of guys he'll be wrestling in the NFL.

 

[larryo]

Thank you for your hand punch explanation box. That helps a lot. I've been wondering about that for some time. It's hard to see what goes on in the trenches just watching a tv broadcast. That aspect of the game intrigues me the most. The trench warfare. Great stuff.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Thank you for your hand punch explanation box. That helps a lot. I've been wondering about that for some time. It's hard to see what goes on in the trenches just watching a tv broadcast. That aspect of the game intrigues me the most. The trench warfare. Great stuff.

As a once upon a time 120 pound two-way starting Guard, I enjoy trying to puzzle out what's happening where it really counts. Most of my memories from that time are either face down in the turf or a bit hazy for some reason...

 

[larryo]

Haha. That's awesome.

Amazing to see how big the guys on the line are. When they show the filed level view on the tv you can see how they just monster over everybody else. 6'7" 330 is a humongous dude.

Just one more question and I'll leave you alone. Do teams update weights year to year or do they just list the weight of player when he was drafted and never change it?

sorry to derail the thread some. My apologies.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Haha. That's awesome.

Amazing to see how big the guys on the line are. When they show the filed level view on the tv you can see how they just monster over everybody else. 6'7" 330 is a humongous dude.

Just one more question and I'll leave you alone. Do teams update weights year to year or do they just list the weight of player when he was drafted and never change it?

sorry to derail the thread some. My apologies.

Ask away, intelligent questions, even off topic, do not derail a thread and are a refreshing change from the calls for new coordinators or Cornerbacks or whichever OL is currently the whipping boy.

I can't speak to all 32 team's practices, NE's published roster is unofficial, so changes are slow, often the numbers are taken from college rosters (Wendell's 275 is directly from Fresno State and not from his Pro Day & All-Star game weigh-ins which were 10 lbs heavier).

If you go look at the 2001 roster you'll see Bruschi listed as 245 Official New England Patriots - Team / - Roster Reports, in 2003 they listed him at 247 Official New England Patriots - Team - Roster Reports which remained effective through his final year in 2008 - yet a casual observer would have noted he looked heavier after he came back from his stroke and they started playing him at SILB in place of Ted Johnson (where he would have needed a bit more weight).

Another example, at the beginning of Training Camp Mayo was asked about his weight and reportedly said he was at 250 or a bit over - his roster weight remained at 242 from his Combine weigh-in. Yet another is Edelman who is listed as 6', yet his Pro-Day height was a shade over 5'10".

For the most part the roster weights are all we have to work with, even if we have Combine, Pro-Day, or College All-Star game weigh-ins, those numbers are at best a starting point once the Strength & Conditioning coaches and the nutritionists get their hands on the lads. :confused2:

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Interview: Brandon Graham

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Scouting Report: Brandon Spikes

 

[larryo]

Ask away, intelligent questions, even off topic, do not derail a thread and are a refreshing change from the calls for new coordinators or Cornerbacks or whichever OL is currently the whipping boy.

I can't speak to all 32 team's practices, NE's published roster is unofficial, so changes are slow, often the numbers are taken from college rosters (Wendell's 275 is directly from Fresno State and not from his Pro Day & All-Star game weigh-ins which were 10 lbs heavier).

If you go look at the 2001 roster you'll see Bruschi listed as 245 Official New England Patriots - Team / - Roster Reports, in 2003 they listed him at 247 Official New England Patriots - Team - Roster Reports which remained effective through his final year in 2008 - yet a casual observer would have noted he looked heavier after he came back from his stroke and they started playing him at SILB in place of Ted Johnson (where he would have needed a bit more weight).

Another example, at the beginning of Training Camp Mayo was asked about his weight and reportedly said he was at 250 or a bit over - his roster weight remained at 242 from his Combine weigh-in. Yet another is Edelman who is listed as 6', yet his Pro-Day height was a shade over 5'10".

For the most part the roster weights are all we have to work with, even if we have Combine, Pro-Day, or College All-Star game weigh-ins, those numbers are at best a starting point once the Strength & Conditioning coaches and the nutritionists get their hands on the lads. :confused2:

Checked out the Pats site and they have Wilfork listed at 325 and jeez he hasn't been at 325 in some time. Guess they feel there is some competitive advantage for doing it. Anyway this is my last question and I appreciate your help. Can you recommend a book where I can learn about techniques? I hear references to so and so is a 5 technique or a 0 technique. Please steer me in the right direction so I can gain a few points on my football IQ. Thanks in advance.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Checked out the Pats site and they have Wilfork listed at 325 and jeez he hasn't been at 325 in some time. Guess they feel there is some competitive advantage for doing it. Anyway this is my last question and I appreciate your help. Can you recommend a book where I can learn about techniques? I hear references to so and so is a 5 technique or a 0 technique. Please steer me in the right direction so I can gain a few points on my football IQ. Thanks in advance.

For starters try this site: Football 101: Defensive Tackles

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Q&A: Aaron Morgan, Louisiana-Monroe | Draft Bible Q & A

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Jerry Hughes I TCU, DE/OLB: 2010 NFL Draft

 

[reflexblue]

Jerry Hughes I TCU, DE/OLB: 2010 NFL Draft

Here's a question Mr. Box Do you see any OLB's in this draft as lets say Barwin from last year. In reading this years scouting reports i think last years crop was more complete on the whole. INO is this true. The only complete LB prospect is McClain from what i've read.
Some are quick but to lite, some are fast and stong but to short, some don't have a consistant motor, some are fast strong and have a high motor but lack recognition skills etc..

Example Hughes is quick but limited in his pass rush moves and stopping the run.

Kindle isn't as fast but a good hitter but lacks lower body strenth.

B. Graham seems a little short for a BB OLB.

Spikes inconsitant motor i think it was

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Here's a question Mr. Box Do you see any OLB's in this draft as lets say Barwin from last year. In reading this years scouting reports i think last years crop was more complete on the whole. INO is this true. The only complete LB prospect is McClain from what i've read.
Some are quick but to lite, some are fast and stong but to short, some don't have a consistant motor, some are fast strong and have a high motor but lack recognition skills etc..

Example Hughes is quick but limited in his pass rush moves and stopping the run.

Kindle isn't as fast but a good hitter but lacks lower body strenth.

B. Graham seems a little short for a BB OLB.

Spikes inconsitant moter i think it was

There are no perfect NE 3-4 LB candidates in this draft, including McClain. I'm not setting my sights for a high draft pick in this draft, I'd prefer NE used the first two picks on a DL and WR respectively, but there are a couple kids who might make BB consider a second round pick.

The following kids I've seen play at least once and believe have a chance to be drafted by NE as LB projects:

BOR #1 OLB prospect Koa Misi, Utah, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com I'd draft him with the Tennessee pick in the second round. -- 2009 Sugar Bowl against Alabama he lined up in the 4-3 as a DE and 3-tech; in the same game they also played 3-4 fronts and he lined up as OLB, 5-tech, and NT - you might recall Utah won that game. I was watching for the 2009 draft's Paul Kruger, instead I spent most of my time watching Misi. I haven't watched Utah's 2010 bowl game yet, but draftnik pundits have been singing Misi's praises since the Senior Bowl made them go back and watch some of his games.

Austen Lane, Murray State, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com -- Small school kid, raw, he's going to be overdrafted because he's one of those rare body types, but if he's still around in the late second BB may take a chance.

Eric Norwood, South Carolina, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com -- This kid may never be a three down LB, but then again he's one heck of an edge rusher and I think if he's bulked back up to 260 and broken of the bad habits drilled into him by South Carolina's coaches (Spurrier - meh) he has the potential to develop into a Bruschi-like ILB.

George Selvie, South Florida, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com -- He impressed at least one observer with his efforts in coverage drills at the Senior Bowl.

A.J. Edds, Iowa, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Cameron Sheffield, Troy, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Most of the following kids will be around in the 6th and later, there's some James Harrison/TBC potential here.

Adrian Tracy, William & Mary, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Albert McClellan, Marshall, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Danny Batten, South Dakota State, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Boris Lee, Troy, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

George Johnson, Rutgers, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Antonio Coleman, Auburn, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Dexter Davis, Arizona State, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Alex Daniels, Cincinnati, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Jason Beauchamp, UNLV, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Tim Knicky, Stephen F. Austin, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Barry Turner, Nebraska, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

Frank Zombo, Central Michigan, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

 

[reflexblue]

Thank you Box, you shouldn't have gone through all that trouble. There just didn't seem like this year was as good as last. But maybe it just seems like that to me.