Welcome to PatsFans.com

Like I've been saying, we're taxed enough.

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Real World, Nov 2, 2011.

  1. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    144
    Ratings:
    +296 / 4 / -2

    But, Save the Children! Not so in Colorado. It's time for governments across the globe to be more efficient with the money they're already taking.


    Colorado voters reject raising taxes to support education


    November 1, 2011 | 8:20pm


    In what could be a harbinger of the 2012 election, Colorado voters Tuesday overwhelmingly rejected a measure that would have raised nearly $3 billion for education by temporarily increasing state income, sales and use taxes.

    With 59% of the projected vote counted, Proposition 103 was trailing 65% to 35%, the Associated Press reported.

    The debate over the measure closely mirrored recent rancor in Washington over the question of whether more spending will revive a moribund economy or slow down a nascent recovery.



    Colorado voters reject raising taxes to support education - latimes.com
  2. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,288
    Likes Received:
    44
    Ratings:
    +105 / 0 / -3

    #75 Jersey

  3. JackBauer

    JackBauer On the Roster

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    15,728
    Likes Received:
    185
    Ratings:
    +327 / 6 / -7

    Unfortunately, your linked article does absolutely nothing to support your assertion.
  4. Ilikehappyppl

    Ilikehappyppl Rookie

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Yeah!!!

    Who want's a higher education??? We want big screen TV's! We want brand new cars! We want big houses! We want new clothes! We want big RV's! We want cabins and summer homes!

    Who wants a well educated people anyways.......Educations is for losers!


    If we want to be the best, have the greatest society its gonna cost us some money....Have to put our young people ahead of our wants, have to make sacrifices to achieve our goals.

    It's already pretty sad when you look around and see how stupid this next gen coming up is......we have dumbed down our people so much its not even funny:bricks:

    Edit: Now i'm not big on building new schools that cost 25 million or paying superintendents a butt load of money what I do want to see is better learning tools more resources and better teachers. I would like to see more after school programs and more sports involved.

    We need to cut the fat at the top and use that money to hire more/better teachers and outfit our schools for the 21st century. Ipad's for everyone, skype for kids and teachers to better communicate with parents and kids. Shorten days, and hold online classes.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  5. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,288
    Likes Received:
    44
    Ratings:
    +105 / 0 / -3

    #75 Jersey

    See Post #2.
  6. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    144
    Ratings:
    +296 / 4 / -2


    Actually I think it says it all. When put to the people, not even Save the Children! rhetoric could lead Coloradans to increase their own taxes.

    Anyone who's done even a shred of research on this subject, knows full and well that increases in funding do not translate into an increase in learning. i.e. It's not a money problem.
  7. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,702
    Likes Received:
    18
    Ratings:
    +42 / 0 / -1

    No Jersey Selected

    I am of the opinion that we already spend a lot on Education in this country (and I think the graphs above state as such, but could be reading them wrong). And before someone jumps and says "but we spend this much more on defense". I recognize that and have said on this forum that defense spending should be cut, in my opinion by at least half.

    What we as a society should be saying is how can we spend our money better (not necessarily more). To happy's point, more technology can be just one answer. The things I would do are as follows:

    1. Remove unions or at least force them to negotiate teacher contracts from a give and take perspective. Teachers should be fired for poor performance, period end of story. If anyone else in their job produces crappy results, then they get canned, teachers should be no different. Also none of this "well my contract says I have to work X hours a day" so no office hours beyond that time. If you are a teacher, sometimes you may have to work a longer day because someone needs after hours time to nail down the subject of the day.

    2. No more of this "teaching to a test" junk. I (thankfully) was able to attend an very highly ranked international school for my HS education and thus avoided the American public school system. I would go so far to say that my HS curriculum was so advanced that my first 2.5 years of college was a repeat of my last two years of HS. My sister did two years there, two here. Her two here were pathetic. She never even covered the Civil War in History class because it wasn't on the standardized test (MCAS??)

    Teaching only stuff on a test isn't teaching. Its more like "Cliffs Notes"

    3. Parents have to be involved. From parent teacher conferences, to talking with their kids about what they are learning, making sure the kids are doing their homework, they need to be involved.

    4. Kids have to care. This is their job. I know it takes maturity to figure it out, but it should come.

    5. Smaller class sizes - though I am not sure how to accomplish this. My biggest class size in HS was 15ish (and that was a 2K student HS at the time)
  8. Ilikehappyppl

    Ilikehappyppl Rookie

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    You sure its not a money problem? I think anyone with a brain knows that with more resources=better education.....Its not just a money problem though your right about that its a people problem, its bad local government its bad superintendents and its a lack of hindsight, its a lack of having the resources to be better and achieve better.

    http://www.tauntongazette.com/educa...eaky-roofs-mold-rotting-wood-poor-air-quality

    Military Children's Schools in Disrepair - The Daily Beast

    Are America

    The Failure of American Schools - Magazine - The Atlantic



    If they can't even fix a leaking roof, I doubt they have enough money/resources to teach our kids accordingly.....RW your a smart guy, I think your smart enough to understand simple logic......you just might be a shining example of why we need better funding for our schools:cool:


    Edit: We might be spending enough on Education problem is its going to the higher ups and not to the kids, its going to the new 25 million dollar schools in the nice neighborhoods and not going to where it needs to be going. We need better tools and we need better teachers, do we need more money.....I don't know but I do know with more resources and resources that are going to the right cause it can only benefit us not hurt us.

    Its like saying, "Hey lets build a new school with an Olympic size pool and that will get us better SAT scores" We need the money but we can't be spending it on stupid **** and expect good results now if you spent that money on better books, better teachers and better tools, I'm sure your SAT scores would go up!
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  9. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,288
    Likes Received:
    44
    Ratings:
    +105 / 0 / -3

    #75 Jersey

    It depends on how the money is spent.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  10. JackBauer

    JackBauer On the Roster

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    15,728
    Likes Received:
    185
    Ratings:
    +327 / 6 / -7

    Which, as I said, is almost entirely irrelevant to the point you have repeatedly attempted and failed to make.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  11. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    5,742
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    There's three factors IMO that affect the educational outcome of a particular student

    1) The basic intellectual capacity of the kid. No amount of effort on anyone's part can turn the Forrest Gumps of the world into engineers.

    2) The Parents and their commitment to the kid's education.

    3) The overall quality of the teachers the kid gets.

    How do you fire a poorly performing teacher when teachers in general have no control over the first 2 items I mentioned, and then how do you fire an Algebra teacher who gets a bunch of kids who can't do arithmetic?
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  12. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,971
    Likes Received:
    99
    Ratings:
    +176 / 5 / -22

    Graphs are nice, but the story behind the graphs tell all..

    The first spike happened in the mid 70's after the Education of Handicapped Children which was passed by Congress in 1975 and signed by President Ford.. this is known as PL 94-142. As is usually the case there are promises of funding, but that never happens and the burden falls on the states and the LEA's..

    Education for All Handicapped Children Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    The second big spike is the No Child Left Behind Legislations, passed by Congress and signed into law by George Bush in 1971. This bipartisan law in the regulation process forced LEA's & states to hire a lot of additional staff, there were promises of funding which never materialized.

    No Child Left Behind Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 (NCLB)[1][2] is a United States Act of Congress concerning the education of children in public schools.

    All of these laws are nice, feel good stuff.. but let the states decide what their students need.
  13. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,288
    Likes Received:
    44
    Ratings:
    +105 / 0 / -3

    #75 Jersey

    My point was that the idea that we have cut spending or don't spend enough is bollocks.
  14. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,971
    Likes Received:
    99
    Ratings:
    +176 / 5 / -22

    My point is educational spending has a context, in this case increased federal regulations usually without adequate compensation to enact federal regulations..
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  15. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    144
    Ratings:
    +296 / 4 / -2

    I'm not sure I follow. So we don't spend enough, spending more = better education, but maybe we do spend enough, just not the right way? :confused2:

    I'm sure you were a smart guy in the public school you went to. ;)



    Only failed to make with you Jack. Although with you the terms "failed" and "point" are used with the needed salt.

    Bingo. Money isn't the issue. $550 billion on k-12 education in 2009. $10,591 per student. That's a lot of coin.


  16. JackBauer

    JackBauer On the Roster

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    15,728
    Likes Received:
    185
    Ratings:
    +327 / 6 / -7

    No, you've failed to make your point by any reasonable standard. Let's recap your evidence:

    1.) Your gut feeling that we are already taxed enough, repeated ad nauseum
    2.) The citizens of one of 50 states voting down a referendum to increase taxes to support education funding

    Conclusion: "We" are taxed enough, at every level, for any purpose.

    No offense, but only a fool would be convinced by such a shoddy argument.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  17. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    15,363
    Likes Received:
    246
    Ratings:
    +349 / 8 / -3

    #12 Jersey


    The argument loses even more credibility when you know that while Denver may have voted down increased taxes for educational purposed another state, Oregon, voted for it last year - by a large margin.

    Oregon voters bucked decades of anti-tax and anti-Salem sentiment Tuesday, raising taxes on corporations and the wealthy to prevent further erosion of public schools and other state services.

    The tax measures passed easily, with late returns showing a 54 percent to 46 percent ratio. Measure 66 raises taxes on households with taxable income above $250,000, and Measure 67 sets higher minimum taxes on corporations and increases the tax rate on upper-level profits.


    Oregon voters pass tax increasing measures by big margin | OregonLive.com
  18. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    12,836
    Likes Received:
    96
    Ratings:
    +151 / 2 / -1

    I disagree, at least at some basic level. Education should be a national priority. The federal government has a role in terms of at least setting certain basic standards.
  19. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,702
    Likes Received:
    18
    Ratings:
    +42 / 0 / -1

    No Jersey Selected

    SD, obviously I am speaking in generalities. Points 1 and 2 are as valid as the day is long. However what about instances where everyone in a given class is performing poorly? OR that year after year, students in teacher X's classes perform poorly.

    At somepoint the "well the students are all Gumps" loses steam.
  20. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,971
    Likes Received:
    99
    Ratings:
    +176 / 5 / -22

    There is a difference between certain basic standards, and a one size fits all expensive set of rules they have to abide by... the funding never followed the legislation.

    I can see guidelines and rewarding exemplary practice, but to dictate what they can and can do in a LEA is beyond reasonable. IMO the Department of Education is just another bureaucratic behemoth..

    Even now Obama is granting states the opportunity to opt out of No Child Left Behind.. and many states are taking advantage of this.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>