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Liberalism/liberals

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by JLC, Jan 31, 2006.

  1. JLC

    JLC Rookie

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    I ran across this quote today:

    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest thing. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.

    The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by exertions of better men than himself."


    This quote is from liberal philosopher John Stuart Mill.

    Now, the first thought that went through my mind was, "They're not making liberals like they used to."

    What think ye?
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think you're confusing liberals and leftists. There are leftists, who I have some sympathy for, who believe that war is simply the exploitation of the poor. There's a lot of truth to that. The issue liberals have with the Iraq war is the motivation behind the war. Liberals saw containment working reasonably well, especially in a region which is a powder keg. Bush lit the powder keg, and now we see a complete mess. Liberals were by and large for American involvement in Bosnia, and sharply criticized Clinton for his handling of Rwanda.

    There are many different types of liberals, progressives, leftists, and so on, and the Republican Party has a similar mix on the right.
  3. Turk

    Turk Rookie

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    Well put, Patters.
  4. Chevy

    Chevy Rookie

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    On the surface, containment seemed to be working ... sort of, kinda if you're really into rose colored shades.

    Really, the whole deal was a way for Kofi & Sons to make more money on the Food for Oil program. Meanwhile, Saddam didn't have to abide by any of the UN dictates (he shot at coalition aircraft in the no-fly zone, repeatedly banned/hindered inspectors, and still terrorized his own people).

    So, if the surface is all that matters, well I guess you're right.

    I agree that there are many shades on both sides of the aisle. As a conservative I was with the Dems when it came to Bosnia (I wish he had acted quicker, but he took action and it was right.) Rawanda, Somalia were Charlie Foxtrot all the way - Clinton should have sent in the full might of the US after the Somalia debacle. Kosovo - more of a training mission than a real air war - again good job.

    Now, if you'll excuse me, my "agree with lefty" meter is pegged and needs servicing. :D
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2006
  5. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    There are pacifists on the left, but I'd venture that many of the people opposing the Iraq war would not oppose every war, just the (allegedly) unnecessary ones. If Iran keeps building nuclear bombs and talking about wiping countries off the map, there may be a war we need to involve ourselves in.
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Containment certainly needed to be tightened, and I think eveyone pretty much supported Bush's initial efforts in that regard. Bush was quite successful at getting Saddam to comply with weapons inspections, and Bush was tougher than Clinton in enforcing no-fly provisions. That was all fine, especially in the wake of 9/11 when the world became a different place.

    I'm not really clear if Kofi Annan did anything criminal, and I'm not exactly sure what his son did. I know nothing about this site, but it seems to provide some good information and it sounds like the jury is very much still out:

    http://www.oilforfoodfacts.com/faq.aspx#4

    At any rate, from what I've read there were many, including a number of American companies, that manipulated the program and that indeed was a problem.

    One could argue that you were actually a liberal. (No offense, Chevy.) It's only with the rise of neocons that conservatives have moved way from a more isolationist point of view.

    Leave it go, it's working just fine.
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    HELL NO WE WON'T GO, NO MORE WAR, GIVE PEACE A CHANCE, PUFF THE MAGIC DRAGON.

    THE LIBERALS ARE ACTUALLY STARTING TO BEAT THEIR LITTLE TOY WAR DRUMS, THEY WANT AMERICA TO GO TO WAR WITH IRAN, THE PEACENICS NOW WANT A WAR, SEAN PENN IS GOING TO JOIN THE MARINES, NANCY PELOSI WILL LEAD A MARCH ON WASHINGTON DEMANDING WAR.

    GIVE ISRAEL THE OK TO "NUKE IRAN" SAVE AMERICANS LIVES, HELL NO WE WON'T GO.

    THIS IS A LIBERAL COO-COO :bricks:
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2006
  8. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Yeah, because Israel using nukes would REALLY help stabalize the region, which would definately NOT breed more terrorists who try to blow up pieces of America. Is the sarcasm obvious enough? Sean Penn might actually know a thing or two about when to pick a fight.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2006
  9. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    "I don't care what George Bush tells you, our military's been run into the ground. More than half of our folks are there for a second time, the divorce rates have doubled, we're now moving combat units out of Korea and out of training units in the United States to perform combat missions in Iraq, recruiting numbers are in the toilet, and retention numbers will soon fall. At the end of the day, he's really destroyed our military, and that will have long-term effects for our national security for decades." - words from a soldier whos been there, Paul Reickoff

    Its not that liberals will never fight, its more that liberals are more cautious of war for this very reason. What am I saying? Traditional conservatives were historically the isolationists against foreign entanglements. It was the leftists that always wanted to intervene (see Vietnam)...now they call themselves "conservatives". They are the neo-conservatives. True conservatives still maintain that force is to be used for national defense, not pre-emptive war.
  10. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    And many others who have also been there sing a different tune, but than again what do you know all safe and sound in mommy and daddy's basement.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2006
  11. All_Around_Brown

    All_Around_Brown Rookie

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    Not that you would know from experience, fraud.
  12. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    And you would know how?

    Go back to bed I think mommy might be mad that you are using the computer while mommy and daddy are trying to create a useful offspring.
  13. tatepatsfan

    tatepatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I think you guys are confusing the terms liberalism with liberal. Liberalism, at the time of JS Mill, is the advocated form of government, which we (in part) have today in the USA. It is not representative of liberal as in a democrat or anyone who supports "liberal" things. Liberalism is a view of a particular political system - not the political views of liberals.

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