Lewis, G. Warren and Pryor

[Ring 6]

Why would a team take him on waivers when they had ample opportunity to take him in the draft? They'd have to give up a roster spot and drop a player.

I believe they have to pay him and keep him on the regular roster for three weeks.

7th round picks aren't hard to come by, they are often duplicates due to compensation. We had 4. Deaderick wasn't even our first 7th.

What logical reason would make him so valuable now when he was almost a FA a couple months ago?

Also, if he hasnt earned a spot, why would BB care that a guy not good enough to make the team plays for another? That logic says the other guy, good enough to make the team is better to cut????????
Almost no rookies dont make it through waivers, because teams favor players who have been through their camp to taking a flyer on a guy who doesnt even know the playbook yet (not to mention they dont even know if he can learn it)

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Why would a team take him on waivers when they had ample opportunity to take him in the draft? They'd have to give up a roster spot and drop a player.

I believe they have to pay him and keep him on the regular roster for three weeks.

That's if you sign a player off another team's practice squad. If you pick him up off waivers, you inherit the original contract, warts and all, so to speak.

What logical reason would make him so valuable now when he was almost a FA a couple months ago?

Obviously, it's a bit early to be making such pronouncements, but remember a certain 7th-rounder last year quickly proved that he probably would not survive waivers. . . .

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Also, if he hasnt earned a spot, why would BB care that a guy not good enough to make the team plays for another? That logic says the other guy, good enough to make the team is better to cut????????
Almost no rookies dont make it through waivers, because teams favor players who have been through their camp to taking a flyer on a guy who doesnt even know the playbook yet (not to mention they dont even know if he can learn it)

And yet, in the last three seasons, the Patriots had one sixth-round rookie claimed off waivers (Justin Rogers), and had teams interested in trading for another (Myron Pryor).

 

[RayClay]

And yet, in the last three seasons, the Patriots had one sixth-round rookie claimed off waivers (Justin Rogers), and had teams interested in trading for another (Myron Pryor).

Richard was on waivers all last year and they bumped his salary. There's a certain mathematical formula here that's indisputable. if he proves as valuable as Edelman they'll find a place for him, it's not like they don't need young D-linemen.

If he doesn't break out so obviously that every team in the league wants him, he's the same guy that got bypassed 200+ times, so why are we worrying about him? He played at Alabama, it's not like he was a secret.

 

[patchick]

A REALITY CHECK
Please list the rookies 6th or 7th round draft choice who was waived in the past 5 years and were picked up by another team, preventing a team from puttin him on the Practice Squad.

I was interested in the question, so here's the full roundup.

Over the past 5 years, the Patriots have drafted 17 players in rounds 6 & 7. 7 of those players made the 53 out of camp. 3 were injured. 7 were waived healthy out of camp.

Of the 7 waived healthy:

- 1 was claimed off waivers

- 2 were signed immediately to the Pats' Practice Squad

- 4 were signed immediately to other teams' practice squads. We have no way of knowing whether they also had an offer from the Pats. (Top cuts often have multiple PS options, and choose the situation that they believe will give them the best opportunity to make a team's 53.)

- O were still looking for a job weeks later. Yep, zero. Kind of amazing, no?

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I was interested in the question, so here's the full roundup.

Over the past 5 years, the Patriots have drafted 17 players in rounds 6 & 7. 7 of those players made the 53 out of camp. 3 were injured. 7 were waived healthy out of camp.

Of the 7 waived healthy:

- 1 was claimed off waivers

- 2 were signed immediately to the Pats' Practice Squad

- 4 were signed immediately to other teams' practice squads. We have no way of knowing whether they also had an offer from the Pats. (Top cuts often have multiple PS options, and choose the situation that they believe will give them the best opportunity to make a team's 53.)

- O were still looking for a job weeks later. Yep, zero. Kind of amazing, no?

Great post!!

 

[Ring 6]

And yet, in the last three seasons, the Patriots had one sixth-round rookie claimed off waivers (Justin Rogers), and had teams interested in trading for another (Myron Pryor).

One example does not make it common.

 

[RayClay]

I was interested in the question, so here's the full roundup.

Over the past 5 years, the Patriots have drafted 17 players in rounds 6 & 7. 7 of those players made the 53 out of camp. 3 were injured. 7 were waived healthy out of camp.

Of the 7 waived healthy:

- 1 was claimed off waivers

- 2 were signed immediately to the Pats' Practice Squad

- 4 were signed immediately to other teams' practice squads. We have no way of knowing whether they also had an offer from the Pats. (Top cuts often have multiple PS options, and choose the situation that they believe will give them the best opportunity to make a team's 53.)

- O were still looking for a job weeks later. Yep, zero. Kind of amazing, no?

We're a successful team, other teams respect our talent evaluation. The question is not whether our cuts make other teams temporarily, or practice squads, it's whether they could help our team. What difference does it make if we cut someone who languishes on someone else's practice squad instead of ours?

It wouldn't even matter if they were wildly successful elsewhere, since helping our team is all that matters.

It would be a reason to reevaluate though. Have any of our 6th, 7th round cuts become extremely valuable players on other teams?

 

[Ring 6]

I was interested in the question, so here's the full roundup.

Over the past 5 years, the Patriots have drafted 17 players in rounds 6 & 7. 7 of those players made the 53 out of camp. 3 were injured. 7 were waived healthy out of camp.

Of the 7 waived healthy:

- 1 was claimed off waivers

- 2 were signed immediately to the Pats' Practice Squad

- 4 were signed immediately to other teams' practice squads. We have no way of knowing whether they also had an offer from the Pats. (Top cuts often have multiple PS options, and choose the situation that they believe will give them the best opportunity to make a team's 53.)

- O were still looking for a job weeks later. Yep, zero. Kind of amazing, no?

I think you will find throughout the league that most drafted players end up on a roster, injured or on a practice squad.
There is plenty of practice squad room for all drafted players, in fact there are probably close to the same number of practice squad spots and draft choices.

As far as the whole getting through to the practice squad issue, Rogers is really the only example that is clear enough to tell us anything. But an overall search of rookies cut at final cutdown and claimed off waivers (which would take way too long for me to do, but I have done in the past) reveals that it is very rare. And it makes sense that it is, for many reasons:
-To claim someones elses rookie cut, you have to cut a guy who spent your entire camp with you, and made your team
-You are devoting a roster spot to a guy you didn't have the advantage of seeing in camp compared to 53 you did
-If you don't claim him, he is free to go to anyones practice squad and you can poach him from it
-He doesnt know your system

Most importantly, while fans are obessed that no player ever under contract with their team should be allowed to ever have success anywhere else, NFL teams are not. They are trying to put together the best team they have. The 'won't get to the ps' mentality suggests keeping a practice squad caliber player over a roster caliber player because some other team may like him. It ignores that you are certain to lose the roster caliber player in that scenario. Why would you cut the guy who helps you more and lose him in order to not lose the guy who helps you less?

 

[Ring 6]

And yet, in the last three seasons, the Patriots had one sixth-round rookie claimed off waivers (Justin Rogers), and had teams interested in trading for another (Myron Pryor).

How did Rogers work out in Dallas? Perhaps we knew more by having him in camp than the team that picked him up blindly?
Are you suggesting that we should have kept Rogers based upon the stellar career he has had?
Pryor was kept in order to play in 2009 not out of fear someone might want to sign him.

 

[Ring 6]

We're a successful team, other teams respect our talent evaluation. The question is not whether our cuts make other teams temporarily, or practice squads, it's whether they could help our team. What difference does it make if we cut someone who languishes on someone else's practice squad instead of ours?

It wouldn't even matter if they were wildly successful elsewhere, since helping our team is all that matters.

It would be a reason to reevaluate though. Have any of our 6th, 7th round cuts become extremely valuable players on other teams?

Another pertinent factor would be a list of all the players that we apparently kept who wouldn't have made the team other than in order to protect them from being picked up by another team, and how many of them contributed at some point.

 

[RayClay]

Another pertinent factor would be a list of all the players that we apparently kept who wouldn't have made the team other than in order to protect them from being picked up by another team, and how many of them contributed at some point.

We tend to obsess over marginal players here. Not that we don't love them all, but that's why they have training camp. I'm sure they had no problem figuring they'd found a gem in Brady, but there's a lot of JAGS (and we did have 4 7th rounders just this year).

Deaderick played a 3-4 under Saban (I believe) which gives him a leg up and he took a bullet, but realistically, he's looking up at Darryl Richard who they've invested a year and double salary on the PS. Richard's also 6'4", for what that's worth, and has fantastic intangibles as far as academics/character.

If we want them, they find a way to keep them. Just out of curiosity, I looked up Garrett Mills , who we tried to slip through waivers (late season), but Childress wouldn't go with the "gentleman's agreement".

Four seasons, 7 total catches, and he was a 4th round pick. We drafted 24 players in the last two years, maybe one we cut has a real NFL career. That's life, he still might not have helped our team, which is what matters. Greg Spires was like that, who cares if he fit the Bucs scheme? I wished him well

 

[Ring 6]

We tend to obsess over marginal players here. Not that we don't love them all, but that's why they have training camp. I'm sure they had no problem figuring they'd found a gem in Brady, but there's a lot of JAGS (and we did have 4 7th rounders just this year).

Deaderick played a 3-4 under Saban (I believe) which gives him a leg up and he took a bullet, but realistically, he's looking up at Darryl Richard who they've invested a year and double salary on the PS. Richard's also 6'4", for what that's worth, and has fantastic intangibles as far as academics/character.

If we want them, they find a way to keep them. Just out of curiosity, I looked up Garrett Mills , who we tried to slip through waivers (late season), but Childress wouldn't go with the "gentleman's agreement".

Four seasons, 7 total catches, and he was a 4th round pick. We drafted 24 players in the last two years, maybe one we cut has a real NFL career. That's life, he still might not have helped our team, which is what matters. Greg Spires was like that, who cares if he fit the Bucs scheme? I wished him well

Agreed.
The Deadrick thing is interesting.
Supposedly we should keep him fearing that someone else can find a use for him and that would deprive us of all his upside. But the best thing anyone can say about him is that he played 2gap 34. Doesnt that address whether he could be likely to contribute THIS YEAR, not whether he has a high upside?
I think that BB would like to keep all 80, but he can't and he certainly isnt obsessed with the thought that the worst thing that can happen is that he cuts a player who develops into something elsewhere.
I compare the 'he wont make it to the ps' mentality to not folding when you are trying to fill an inside straight because what if you get it.

 

[RayClay]

Agreed.
The Deadrick thing is interesting.
Supposedly we should keep him fearing that someone else can find a use for him and that would deprive us of all his upside. But the best thing anyone can say about him is that he played 2gap 34. Doesnt that address whether he could be likely to contribute THIS YEAR, not whether he has a high upside?
I think that BB would like to keep all 80, but he can't and he certainly isnt obsessed with the thought that the worst thing that can happen is that he cuts a player who develops into something elsewhere.
I compare the 'he wont make it to the ps' mentality to not folding when you are trying to fill an inside straight because what if you get it.

I think the reasoning is, he's played the actual position for a BB guy, has the general size, so he's projected as somehow growing in a direct line into an actual Seymour clone.

Your logic is correct. If he was ready now, he wouldn't have been hidden from the rest of the teams that would love a Seymour clone. If he's years away, there would be plenty of time to teach him.

Gonna be a lot of broken hearts this year, as binkies are slashed left and right.

By the way, I'm for keeping Pryor if possible, knowing he's only good for sub packages. I just like his energy and quickness at that size.

However, I can't begin to figure this roster and i expect some really tough last cuts across positions. Probably between Pryor, a linebacker and an Olineman, unless some players just play themselves off or have injuries.

 

[Ring 6]

I think the reasoning is, he's played the actual position for a BB guy, has the general size, so he's projected as somehow growing in a direct line into an actual Seymour clone.

Your logic is correct. If he was ready now, he wouldn't have been hidden from the rest of the teams that would love a Seymour clone. If he's years away, there would be plenty of time to teach him.

Gonna be a lot of broken hearts this year, as binkies are slashed left and right.

By the way, I'm for keeping Pryor if possible, knowing he's only good for sub packages. I just like his energy and quickness at that size.

However, I can't begin to figure this roster and i expect some really tough last cuts across positions. Probably between Pryor, a linebacker and an Olineman, unless some players just play themselves off or have injuries.

One thing we know is that we cant predict the roster now. I think there is a good chance that either GWarren or Lewis get cut just based on the history of first year veterans here. We remember the Vrables and Phifers but we have brought in a ton (a lot of them corners) of vets who seem like a roster spot lock and they get cut.
But aside from trying to determine the fate of a player based on the performance of previous totally unrelated players, I see them both as clearly among the best 6.
As far as Pryor, I'd love for him to stick, but I think that has to mean that he has made great strides from last year. At DE he was the last guy off the bench, and truly only made the squad because there were no other viable options. (As a 6th rounder he was higher profile than anyone cut at his position). We had, after trading Seymour, Warren, Wright and Green. He got a chance to play when there were injuries to those 3.
I just did not see quality of play beyond a 6th round rookie that was on the bubble at cutdown. He needs to be more than that to stick this year.

My instinct is that people had such low expectations of him last year that he exceeded expectations just making the team. Then he got on the field, and although his play was nothing special, we have many fan dream: an unheralded player they can root for and hope becomes a star.
I'm trying to focus on the play, and not feel better about it because of the path. If our DL isn't better than last year (and hopefully health alone contributes to that) it will be disappointing. Not thrilled if the last DE on the bench who may few plays when he was in there can't be upgraded. (But as I said it could be, by him imporving)

 

[Calciumee]

Re: Lewis, G. Lewis and Pryor

Six: T. Warren-Wilfork-Wright + Brace + two of Lewis, G. Warren, and Pryor.

Exactly what I was thinking. I can't see Wright being cut, but we never know

 

[mgteich]

MY BOTTOM LINE
A team NEEDS about 45 players, the number used on a Game Day roster. I would note that my 45 man NEED roster includes an 8th OL who is usually not be active. The final EIGHT positions can be at almost any position. These positions could be used for developmental players, for depth or for special teamers. Some players in these categories could be recent draft choices that are not expected to produce in the current year, or who are simply given time to develop.

SOME COMMENTS

1) Justin Rogers was judged not to have a future for the patriots. Fans here thought that Belichick made the worng choice. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

2) Greg Spires was judged not to have a future for the patriots. Fans here thought that Belichick made the wrong choice. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

3) Belichick does indeed make room for developmental players from later rounds who are not expected to produce in their first year. LeKevin Smith was one example.

4) Sometimes a late rounder is at the right place at the right time AND steps up to the task. Examples include Givens, Edelman and Pryor.

5) We don't NEED a 3rd QB, 5th RB, 5th WR, 3rd TE or a 9th OL. We don't NEED a 7th DL, 8th DL, 4th ILB, 5th OLB, 5th CB, 6th CB or a 4th S. I would submit that we NEED a 45 man roster as indicated below. The last EIGHT choices can be very fluid, depending on many factors, including the philospohy of the coaches.

ROSTER (53)

OFFENSE (20)
QB 2
RB 4
WR 4
TE 2
OL 8

DEFENSE (20)
DL 6
ILB 3
OLB 4
CB 4
S 3

SPECIALISTS (3)
K 1
P 1
LS 1

SPECIAL TEAMERS (2)

BOTTOM THE ROSTER POSITIONS (8)
Depth 0-8
Developmental 0-8
Special teamers 0-8
==============================

 

[patchick]

Another pertinent factor would be a list of all the players that we apparently kept who wouldn't have made the team other than in order to protect them from being picked up by another team, and how many of them contributed at some point.

I'd say Matt Cassel is the poster child for that category.

 

[Ring 6]

I'd say Matt Cassel is the poster child for that category.

Not really though. Cassell's roster spot wasn't a gift.
Granted QBs are a bit different because who knows what you get out of them as a rookie, but the only other backup QB on the team in MCs rookie year was Flutie and in year 2 he was the #2.

I think you are selling him short to say he didnt earn his spot.

Certainly rookies can get the benefit of the doubt because they are rookies, but thats not really what we are saying.

The topic, as I understand it is:
If we have a guy who wouldn't make the cut, but we would like to add to practice squad and other teams may be interested in the player, do we cut someone else and put this guy on the 53 to keep him out of their hands.
Its backward to me. You dont build the practice squad then build the roster, you build the roster then add what you can onto the ps.

 

[LasVegasPatsFan]

BB could give two sh*** about what round someone was drafted. Seems posters are so caught up with name recognition and what round someone was drafted. Last year Pryor made the squad and played some games. Thats more than I can say for most other rookies in the NFL. Many argue that he didn't play very well....what do you expect from a rookie? He played better than Brace who was drafted in the 2nd round. Every argues that Pryor only played because of the injuries to the other DE's. Well that may be true to an extent but you have to realize BB trusted him over bringing in some veterans last year.