Levin: Tom Brady proves once again why he is the BEST....

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I have to disagree. The ultimate gauge of how good a QB is not by the # of superbowl appearances or wins. Remember, every Patriots superbowl team had a very good, if not great defense.

You can insert Peyton Manning into a completely different team, and they will still have a potent passing attack (as you're seeing in Denver). I'm not quite sure you can say the same thing about Brady.

The only thing worse than this post is your forum name.......echhhhh

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

You may also have missed the Brady / Manning discussions leading up to the Denver game.

People love to point to Mannings' career totals as proof of his superiority. When you look deeper though, at game splits, you find that even on a statistical basis Brady is better in every conceivable situation:

Manning Career splits
Indoors: 112 games, 98.3 QBR, 231:102 TD:INT ratio.
Outdoors: 100 games, 91.4 QBR, 176:99 ratio
Precipitation: 8 games, 83.8 QBR, 11:10 ratio
Windy: 30 games, 82.8 QBR, 41:31 ratio
Temp 41-60 31 games: 85.8 QBR, 51:37 ratio

Brady Career splits
Indoors: 14 games, 103.1 QBR, 29:13 ratio
Outdoors: 151 games, 96 QBR, 278:103 ratio
Precipitation: 13 games, 94.2 QBR, 18:5 ratio
Windy: 58 games, 98.4 QBR, 113:35 ratio
Temp 41-60: 49 games, 97.6 QBR, 91:30 ratio

bottom line: Brady is better in every weather scenario. But... all QBs are better in domes, where PM has played 8X more often

 

[goheels22002]

I have to disagree. The ultimate gauge of how good a QB is not by the # of superbowl appearances or wins. Remember, every Patriots superbowl team had a very good, if not great defense.

You can insert Peyton Manning into a completely different team, and they will still have a potent passing attack (as you're seeing in Denver). I'm not quite sure you can say the same thing about Brady.

I see Seahawks in your moniker. Do you think the Seattle Seahawks would have a better, the same, or worse record with Tom Brady at the controls the last year?

 

[PatsSox363804]

Look, I'm simply offering my opinion based on a non-biased view of EITHER Brady or Manning. No doubt that Brady has grown into a very good QB, but if you're simply saying player A is better than player B, well, you can't simply base that on wins/losses or # of superbowls. Football is a team game. That's really my point

Obviously football is a team game. That's clear in the way Mannings defense carried him to his only ring.

 

[New England Seahawks]

The difference between Brady and Manning - especially in the post-season - Brady does not make the mistake that kills a team. A defense has NEVER had to overcome a Brady mistake in the playoffs or SB - cannot even come close to saying that about Manning. Even his SB winning post-season he threw 1 or 2 TD's vs 7 INT's (includes SB).

This is true.

 

[New England Seahawks]

I see Seahawks in your moniker. Do you think the Seattle Seahawks would have a better, the same, or worse record with Tom Brady at the controls the last year?

Of course. Tom Brady is a very good QB. The question is whether or not he's the "best" (however you quantify that).

 

[Fixit]

Look, I'm simply offering my opinion based on a non-biased view of EITHER Brady or Manning. No doubt that Brady has grown into a very good QB, but if you're simply saying player A is better than player B, well, you can't simply base that on wins/losses or # of superbowls. Football is a team game. That's really my point

Yeah, we're just basing it on wins and SB. We're certainly not factoring in:

SB appearances/SB wins
Winning % (regular season and playoffs, both by a mile)
TD/Int ratio
QB rating (indoor/outdoor/home/away)
Average season/best season/worst season
Brady outdoors in the Northeast for 15-16 games a year vs. Manning in a dome for a minimum of 9 games per year
Fun/insane stat: Brady has more wins than interceptions. Guess who definitely doesn't?

We could talk about weapons and systems, but there's no need for subjectivity. Objectively, Brady is superior in every way that counts.

 

[Bhelmet]

Of course. Tom Brady is a very good QB. The question is whether or not he's the "best" (however you quantify that).

I know this is the point you are making, but NEVER will everyone agree. Most will use playoffs and SB's/Championships to justify their choice. Very rarely will "experts" point to regular season dominance - where Manning may be the best - they will point to the BIG games. Brady may not be the best, but he is FAR better than Manning in this area. Until Brady wins one more, he falls behind Bradshaw and Montana for many "experts" b/c they won more SB's.

 

[PittPatriot]

The difference between Brady and Manning - especially in the post-season - Brady does not make the mistake that kills a team. A defense has NEVER had to overcome a Brady mistake in the playoffs or SB - cannot even come close to saying that about Manning. Even his SB winning post-season he threw 1 or 2 TD's vs 7 INT's (includes SB).

What mistakes has Manning made to "kill his team?" The pick 6 to tracy porter?
Unless the mistake is in the final minutes, rarely does ONE mistake "kill" a game. But since you are asking:
1. the (essential) pick 6 to champ bailey took the life out of a close game as we were driving in Denver in 2005.
2. Troy Brown saved us with a strip of Marlon McCree after he intercepted TB in 2006.
3. The Pats inability to move the ball in the 4th quarter helped us squander a lead to the Colts in the AFCCG 2006 - ending with Bracket's INT of TB in the final minute.

And these are just late game mistakes - we are not even talking about momentum swinging mid game errors.

Both QB's have had their share of playoff/big game failures. It comes with being in big games over and over.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Look, I'm simply offering my opinion based on a non-biased view of EITHER Brady or Manning. No doubt that Brady has grown into a very good QB, but if you're simply saying player A is better than player B, well, you can't simply base that on wins/losses or # of superbowls. Football is a team game. That's really my point

base it on wins/losses

base it on playoff success

base it on performance in the most clutch moments

base it on accuracy

base it on not making mistakes to kill your team (TD/INT)

base it on consistency

base it on versatility, with an ever-evolving attack with many different key personnel

base it on performing with far fewer pro-bowl offensive teammates

base it on statistical superiority under all playing conditions (indoor/outdoor, wind, rain, hot, cold, etc.)

base it on carrying a team to victory (In 5 of the past 11 seasons the Colts defense has statistically ranked HIGHER than the Patriots defense in the commonly-used ranking, yards allowed, while in another season they were essentially tied, i.e. within a yard)

 

[Bhelmet]

What mistakes has Manning made to "kill his team?" The pick 6 to tracy porter?
Unless the mistake is in the final minutes, rarely does ONE mistake "kill" a game. But since you are asking:
1. the (essential) pick 6 to champ bailey took the life out of a close game as we were driving in Denver in 2005.
2. Troy Brown saved us with a strip of Marlon McCree after he intercepted TB in 2006.
3. The Pats inability to move the ball in the 4th quarter helped us squander a lead to the Colts in the AFCCG 2006 - ending with Bracket's INT of TB in the final minute.

And these are just late game mistakes - we are not even talking about momentum swinging mid game errors.

Both QB's have had their share of playoff/big game failures. It comes with being in big games over and over.

Let's not mention the 3 picks to Ty Law. The picks he threw in a couple games against Pittsburgh and SD should also not be mentioned. More times than not his D has had to overcome the mistakes of Manning in the playoffs. I have had many ecstatic moments watching Manning choke in the post-season.

 

[Fball]

Let's not mention the 3 picks to Ty Law. The picks he threw in a couple games against Pittsburgh and SD should also not be mentioned. More times than not his D has had to overcome the mistakes of Manning in the playoffs. I have had many ecstatic moments watching Manning choke in the post-season.

It's interesting to note that the years when both QB's actually won it all, they received heavy support from very good defenses that played as much a part in the playoff runs & SB as the QB play.

Whenever either QB has had to do too much for his team to compensate for a lesser defense, there have been INT's and other mistakes on the part of both.

 

[Bhelmet]

I did forget about the Broncos playoff loss where Brady threw 3 or 4 INT's - so he has his moments - though, VERY few - clutch TD's/scoring drives at end of SB's FAR outnumber ANY post-season mistakes. There is a reason Manning lost 3 State Championships in 3 tries in High School, never could beat Florida (TN's biggest rival at the time - not to mention they win Nat'l Championship year after Manning), and his only SB was far more due to D and Sanders than Manning. Manning lacks something upstairs when it comes to big games that Tom has in spades.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

In hindsight people think the 2001 defense excelled just like the 2003 and 2004 defenses but you have to remember that in 2001 there was no Rodney Harrison, Willie McGinest, Ted Washington, Vince Wilfork, etc. and even guys like Seymour and Vrabel in 2001 were not at the skill level that they later reached.

It was a scrappy tough bunch who played best when it mattered most and who always got help from clutch special teams play.

My favorite season, because of its unexpected nature, but in terms of overall offensive & defensive talent it was a team that way-way overachieved, thankfully.

 

[PittPatriot]

It's interesting to note that the years when both QB's actually won it all, they received heavy support from very good defenses that played as much a part in the playoff runs & SB as the QB play.

Whenever either QB has had to do too much for his team to compensate for a lesser defense, there have been INT's and other mistakes on the part of both.

Exactly - which is why comparing both QB's with regards to W-L is not a great exercise. Arguably, Manning has had to be his own OC and has never had a strong (willed) HC. That might speak to Manning being NEEDING to be the alpha in the organization and Brady also trying to be "just one of the players." For whatever the reason, how can you compare W-L without being able to control for Coaching, defense, strategy, conditions, etc?
I think they are both 2 of the top 3 QB's of all time and I don't think we will ever know who is truly better.

 

[Bhelmet]

For me, I also judge by "who would I want as QB for the last drive of a game with a chance to win?" Tom makes my top 3 - Manning does not. I realize this criteria is also subjective, but I believe more than not would have Brady over Manning.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

who would I want as QB for the last drive of a game with a chance to win a championship?

I just added the last two words, and there are just two logically sound answers to that question: Tom Brady and Joe Montana.

I am not old enough (only 50!) to judge if Unitas is a deserving third member of that highest group or not.

After those two or three, there is a gap to the Marino, Elway, Manning, Staubach grouping (with perhaps guys like Starr, Baugh, etc. in there too).

Then there is a gap to the level with Tarkington, Young, Kelly, Fouts, Bradshaw, Warner, Moon, etc. maybe with a few older guys sprinkled in there too.

It's always hard to judge where guys like Eli and Brees fit in. Eli excels in the clutch after barely doign enough to even get there in the first place, whereas Brees is a dome-only QB, so for now I have them in the Tarkington, Young, Kelly, Fouts, Bradshaw, Warner, Moon group

 

[jmt57]

This debate has been beaten to death on this forum over the years, but for the benefit of our new member I'll make a few comments.

• Bill Belichick nearly made Tom Brady the starter at the beginning of the 2001 season, and surely would have replaced Bledsoe some time during that year even without the injury. The idea that he became a starter solely because of fluke luck is a myth. If you want to learn more I strongly suggest reading Education of a Coach and Patriot Reign.
  
  
• The comparison of the 2008 and 2011 seasons is invalid because it ignores all other factors. In 2008 the Pats won seven fewer games than the previous year - despite having a much more favorable schedule; in '08 they played the NFL's two worst divisions (AFCW and NFCW) while in '11 they played two of the NFL's best divisions (AFCN and NFCE).
  
  
• To take that a step further look at how much the Colts had already regressed in 2010. By 2011 the team was already a shell of their former selves due to horrible personnel moves. Once Bill Napolian let his son make decisions the team started taking a nosedive. Even if Manning had played in '11 the Colts would have had a losing record. This was exacerbated by a rash of injuries, and with no decent depth they sunk. Whether or not they tanked in order to get the number one pick is debatable; regardless, even with Manning at QB there is no way they would have won ten games.
  
  
• One more point on the Colts: if the only thing keeping them from being a playoff team and super bowl contender was Peyton Manning, then why didn't the Colts just keep him? The fact that they let him walk and got nothing in return speaks volumes about whether or not he was the only difference.
  
  
• You can bring up the defense of the 2003-04 Pats, that's fine; but if you are going to do so then let's also compare the surrounding players on offense on the two teams from 2001-06. Does Manning do as well with Reche Caldwell replacing Reggie Wayne, Jermaine Wiggins replacing Dallas Clark, etc.? In fairness if you're going to bring up the two defenses you should also bring up the two offenses.
  
  
• Yes, the Patriots did bring in better complimentary offensive players from 2007 on. At the same time the defense declined, so that's a wash. Seymour, Bruschi, Law, Vrabel, etc. - they're all long gone from this defense.
  
  
• As for the 'system quarterback' comment that is always brought up - i.e., the implication that he's not very good and that it's just the system - a couple of questions. If that's the case then why wouldn't the Pats trade Brady, use the millions they are paying him on other positions, and start Brian Hoyer or Ryan Mallett or Tavaris Jackson? If the success of the team is all due to the system and not the player then why haven't other teams implemented the same system? The NFL is a copycat league and these coaches are intelligent people; why hasn't anyone duplicated this offensive system for their own team?

It's a debate that's impossible to absolutely definitively answer. However, the typical responses as to why Brady is not as good are full of flaws.

 

[PittPatriot]

I just added the last two words, and there are just two logically sound answers to that question: Tom Brady and Joe Montana.

I am not old enough (only 50!) to judge if Unitas is a deserving third member of that highest group or not.

After those two or three, there is a gap to the Marino, Elway, Manning, Staubach grouping (with perhaps guys like Starr, Baugh, etc. in there too).

Then there is a gap to the level with Tarkington, Young, Kelly, Fouts, Bradshaw, Warner, Moon, etc. maybe with a few older guys sprinkled in there too.

How do you come up with that list? Bradshaw has 4 SB rings so certainly he is not a 3rd tier guy in a conversation of Championships (your word choice has Bhelmet just said 'win'). Also, if you are talking Championships, then you have a huge omission with Big Ben while you list perennial bridesmaids like Kelly, Fouts, Marino, Tarkington, and Moon.

 

[randomk1]

Exactly - which is why comparing both QB's with regards to W-L is not a great exercise. Arguably, Manning has had to be his own OC and has never had a strong (willed) HC. That might speak to Manning being NEEDING to be the alpha in the organization and Brady also trying to be "just one of the players." For whatever the reason, how can you compare W-L without being able to control for Coaching, defense, strategy, conditions, etc?
I think they are both 2 of the top 3 QB's of all time and I don't think we will ever know who is truly better.

Oh please. Dungy was a good coach and was close to a ring in TB and Tom Moore was one of the top OC's in the NFL.