Let's talk about the OL

[Oswlek]

I'm not concerned about the OL in the least. Merloni voiced what I think would be the opinion of those who are worried, something like this:

The OL was terrible until they figured out the middle and depth proved inadequate whenever one of those players missed time. Now they head into a year down one of those three with nothing but question marks in how it will be filled.

While I can appreciate this viewpoint, I think it places far too much emphasis on the first month of the season. Yes, it was terrible, so bad that it turned one of the best offenses in the league into the keystone cops. The problem is that there were numerous other contributing factors, including but not limited to LaFell not being as trusted, Gronk not being as healthy, new OL coaching and Solder's health issue.

What people who worry about depth overlook is that once those other issues were addressed, the Patriots were able to go several weeks without both Stork and Connolly. Then Stork went down again the playoffs and NE scored almost at will with Kline in at RG against Baltimore and Indy. Even against Seattle, Stork was back but still hobbled.

I'll grant you that the offense sputtered down the stretch when the Patriots sat Connolly again, but those games had a preseason feel about them. I've long theorized that Bill will occasionally take a longer view and take advantage of certain matchups to see how the team (or specific players) will respond to adverse situations. Perhaps I'm naive, but that was way I felt after the Jet game.

Long and short is, I don't think the hole at LG is nearly as big as some believe. I also think the offense is far more settled than it was heading into September last year, which will make it easier to work around uncertainty there. We'll see.

 

[RayClay]

When was the last time the Patriots had two rookie OL's in the starting lineup down the stretch of the season?

They had one last year. we also have a number of young players in the system. sometimes you just have to play and learn.

 

[patsfan13]

John Hannah would, of course, be tiny by today's standards. But how did he compare to other guards of his day?

He was a beast size wise, freak athleticism for an OG, make me smile just thinking about how good he was.

 

[supafly]

So, reassessing the situation after some recent comments, it seems to be a 50/50 split between wanting Wendell at LG, and wanting to start the year with 2/5 rookies.

As noted, the latter hasn't been done for awhile, at least to start the season.

Personally, I'd rather have Kline at one of the interior positions, than see two rookies start the season. The good news is that we can likely move on from Jordan Devey, who looked awful in my opinion.

 

[RayClay]

Also, we didn't know we had a competent guard in wendell last year. why not get some snaps from the young players then work wendell in if they get a bit over their heads. BBs not drafting guards in the 1st [it seems] so there's going to be a learning curve and you can't substitute for playing time for learning.

As far as 2 rookies starting, that's a red herring. They've spent a lot of coaching time on UDFA, even a wrestler. Why would anyone expect those players to start?

This year, they spent extra time on drafting and analyzing, with Dante helping. I think we'll see two young guards, if not more, with a lot of playing time. Probably tackles moving over too. Wendell has value as a sub, too. what if he starts, then he and stork are injured at the same time?

 

[supafly]

He was a beast size wise, freak athleticism for an OG, make me smile just thinking about how good he was.

Just a dominant interior lineman, with a mean streak of nastiness. John Hannah ate guys like Logan Mankins for breakfast

 

[RayClay]

He was a beast size wise, freak athleticism for an OG, make me smile just thinking about how good he was.

He was incredible, but i think the poster meant sizewise. He was a little undersized, I think, but players in general weren't as pumped up. Guards. in particular had to be nimble as running, pulling, was a bigger part of the game.

 

[patsfan13]

Hannah was big in his day, not compared to current players with his frame he could have gone over 300'lb.

 

[supafly]

As far as 2 rookies starting, that's a red herring. They've spent a lot of coaching time on UDFA, even a wrestler. Why would anyone expect those players to start?

I'm not sure that I'd necessarily call the concern of two rookies starting on the OL a red herring, but yes--we shouldn't measure talent by experience.

That said, Guge mentioned yesterday that it was indeed a complex offensive system in terms of the line, so one would have to assume that a rookie may have to stand out quite nicely to be that "second" starter on the OL.

Either way, it will be quite an exciting battle in TC, and a wild card could be guys like Fleming or Cannon seeing some time on the inside, as well.

 

[RayClay]

I'm not sure that I'd necessarily call the concern of two rookies starting on the OL a red herring, but yes--we shouldn't measure talent by experience.

That said, Guge mentioned yesterday that it was indeed a complex offensive system in terms of the line, so one would have to assume that a rookie may have to stand out quite nicely to be that "second" starter on the OL.

Either way, it will be quite an exciting battle in TC, and a wild card could be guys like Fleming or Cannon seeing some time on the inside, as well.

I meant guards and the ways they've acquired them. I certainly don't mean throw two rookies in and hope for the best, i mean with Wendell available to switch in on a moments notice.

 

[shmessy]

Well, then my memory isn't perfect. I thought Light went out in the 2nd quarter of the Super Bowl itself.

I haven't figured it out for sure via googling, but I did find one injury report that listed only two Patriots -- Brady and Light, each Probable (ankle).

Good memory! Grant Williams replaced Light in the 2nd quarter.

That jogged memory of one of the my favorite plays from that game, The pitchout to Kevin Faulk who took about 10 yards near the goal line (just before the Patten TD catch). Grant Williams was a monster on that play dealing a great block at the line then getting out to the second level and dealing another great block. He roadgraded for Faulk on that play. For some reason, that play sticks in my head.

 

[RayClay]

I'm not sure that I'd necessarily call the concern of two rookies starting on the OL a red herring, but yes--we shouldn't measure talent by experience.

That said, Guge mentioned yesterday that it was indeed a complex offensive system in terms of the line, so one would have to assume that a rookie may have to stand out quite nicely to be that "second" starter on the OL.

Either way, it will be quite an exciting battle in TC, and a wild card could be guys like Fleming or Cannon seeing some time on the inside, as well.

In years past, BB has worked in lots of OL and it has paid dividends when there were injuries. I expect him to look at lots of people so, if we have issues, we won't get caught with anyone totally unprepared in crunch time.

 

[supafly]

In years past, BB has worked in lots of OL and it has paid dividends when there were injuries. I expect him to look at lots of people so, if we have issues, we won't get caught with anyone totally unprepared in crunch time.

Absolutely.

I think having some versatility at these various positions will certainly help, as is always the case. As I mentioned before, certain players such as Fleming and Cannon who are considered tackles may even see some reps at guard.

For what it's worth, Mike Loyko states on his twitter account that he doesn't get the impression that the team is locked into using Ryan Wendell, and that they are open to starting 2 rookies at the interior guard spots. That said, I can't see how he can reasonably come to that conclusion, since Wendell is currently on the PUP list. Of course they are going to be giving the rookies lots of looks at the moment.

 

[aluminum seats]

John Hannah would, of course, be tiny by today's standards. But how did he compare to other guards of his day?

He was on the cover of SI (at a time when that actually meant something) with the heading "the greatest offensive lineman of all time."

So...he compared pretty well.

 

[1960Pats]

Well, then my memory isn't perfect. I thought Light went out in the 2nd quarter of the Super Bowl itself.

I haven't figured it out for sure via googling, but I did find one injury report that listed only two Patriots -- Brady and Light, each Probable (ankle).

According to my calculations, Light was the starter in the 14th game vs Buffalo but was out vs Miami before he was back in the starting lineup for the last game at Carolina.

 

[Fencer]

He was on the cover of SI (at a time when that actually meant something) with the heading "the greatest offensive lineman of all time."

So...he compared pretty well.

I didn't mean in skill or greatness, which we rightly take for granted; I meant in size. E.g., Wikipedia says that although he was drafted #4 overall, there were some doubts about his height when he came into the league, by which I presume that editor meant he was a little short even by the standards of the day.

 

[manxman2601]

He was incredible, but i think the poster meant sizewise. He was a little undersized, I think, but players in general weren't as pumped up. Guards. in particular had to be nimble as running, pulling, was a bigger part of the game.

I'm not comparing him to Hannah but watch some videos of Shaq Mason running and pulling. In terms of game film only (rather than combine times), he'll be one of the smoother and quicker second and third level OGs in the NFL.

I'm also quite sure that if he was 6'4" and 315lbs, Mason would have been a first rounder or second rounder at the latest - my CFB comp for him was Jon Cooper of UNC who went top 10 overall.

 

[supafly]

I'm not comparing him to Hannah but watch some videos of Shaq Mason running and pulling. In terms of game film only (rather than combine times), he'll be one of the smoother and quicker second and third level OGs in the NFL.

I'm also quite sure that if he was 6'4" and 315lbs, Mason would have been a first rounder or second rounder at the latest - my CFB comp for him was Jon Cooper of UNC who went top 10 overall.

Thanks for some more specs and info on these new guys. As usual, it seems as though they are much better at run blocking and pulling vs. pass protection, but I suppose that's quite common.

 

[manxman2601]

Thanks for some more specs and info on these new guys. As usual, it seems as though they are much better at run blocking and pulling vs. pass protection, but I suppose that's quite common.

You're right to say that Mason will need time to learn how to pass block and his short arms could always be a problem for him in that regard but in terms of draft value, if he gets it right as a pass blocker in time, he'll represent terrific value. What is interesting, considering that many in the draft process pegged Mason as a centre is that I've seen no mention of him being tried out there. Maybe that will happen when Wendell returns.

 

[patfanken]

I think the OL is definitely a major question mark, with lots of questions about the G's to be answered, but overall I think we are starting the season in a much better place than last season.

Just who the G's are going to be will be the question that surrounds this entire camp. Trying to guess would be pure speculation, since there are so many decent possibilities to do the job. Mason, Tre, Flemming, Cannon, Kline, Wendell. Those are the top 6 candidates, and all of them will get their chances.

Still we are in better shape than after the Mankins trade last season. Hopefully one of the rookies will get the job. The Pats have historically had little trouble letting rookies start on the OL. The second reason I'm more comfortable this season is that Goog's will be more comfortable, and the players more comfortable with him and his style. Scar's shadow will be less of a story this season.

As of THIS moment these are the 5 who I'd like to see emerge. Solder - Flemming - Stork - Cannon - Volmer. Then as back ups, Wendell, Mason, Jackson, and Kline. But that's just a guess with little to substantiate it.

BTW- one of the things I always look at when I read any camp reports, is whether Fleming and Cannon are getting any reps at G. I plan to go Monday, so if I write a report you can be sure that this info WILL be included.