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I thought I was being a homer setting the ceiling at 12-4. I'm always happy to be proven wrong by the Patriots, especially for a positive affect.
 
I've been dismissed off the internets as a huge Boston homer when talking sports, and I actually had money on the Pats going to the Superbowl this year before the regular season.

HOWEVER, one part of this thread I dislike, is over the past few years there have been plenty of blind homers who vilified posters who brought up valid points that are now undeniable, and these blind homers now in some odd way feel vindicated. One example is how Laurence Maroney was not a good running back. Another example is how the defense needed to generate more turnovers through more creative blitzes or jamming receivers, or how about pushing for a more balanced unpredictable offense, which finally arrived this year? Much of the amazing success this season validates what the naysayers (yet Patriot supporters) had been saying - that BJGE can play, that the defense needed better coaching, and that the offense needed to stop being one-dimensional.

Just because Belichick is so great (yet still one man), some homers here lost major credibility by blindly defending every single move, without admitting that most of their debate position wasn't based on their own judgement but simply to defend whatever it was that the team did.

It isn't a big accomplishment to pat yourself on the back for blindly defending every single move while this team hasn't won any rings over the past 6 years. One can acknowledge that Belichick and Brady are as close to perfect at their jobs that we will ever see, while at the same time not having to feel smug over defending past moves that clearly were not correct in retrospect.

.
 
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It's funny because last year's team was awful, one of the worst Pats teams under BB. They were awful in so many ways.

They won 10 games and the division and went to the play-offs.

Do you understand how spoiled we are? I'll always believe in BB. Even at his worst, it's still better than almost everyone else's best.
 
I

HOWEVER, one part of this thread I dislike, is over the past few years there have been plenty of blind homers who vilified posters who brought up valid points that are now undeniable, and these blind homers now in some odd way feel vindicated. One example is how Laurence Maroney was not a good running back. Another example is how the defense needed to generate more turnovers through more creative blitzes or jamming receivers, or how about pushing for a more balanced unpredictable offense, which finally arrived this year? Much of the amazing success this season validates what the naysayers (yet Patriot supporters) had been saying - that BJGE can play, that the defense needed better coaching, and that the offense needed to stop being one-dimensional.

Just because Belichick is so great (yet still one man), some homers here lost major credibility by blindly defending every single move, without admitting that most of their debate position wasn't based on their own judgement but simply to defend whatever it was that the team did.

It isn't a big accomplishment to pat yourself on the back for blindly defending every single move while this team hasn't won any rings over the past 6 years. One can acknowledge that Belichick and Brady are as close to perfect at their jobs that we will ever see, while at the same time not having to feel smug over defending past moves that clearly were not correct in retrospect.

.

Completely disagree.

My motto is IBBIT. "In Bill Belichick I trust"

Here is what I know. Bill knows more about football the every single poster on Patsfans.com combined. I and the other homers recognize that single and simple proposition.

So If BB decides to keep Cassel and cut Gurtz at the start of the 2008 season, and I can't for the life of me figure out why. I am gonna support the keeping of Cassel, cause it is pretty obvious the guy in the hoodie sees something I don't.

If a guy with no fashion sense decides to trade away Maroney and get a midget runningback off the Jets trash heap. Well IBBIT.

If BB decides to trade away a HOF WR, I might not understand it...but IBBIT.

The thing about the homers...we are smart enough to know we ain't as smart as BB. The realists/chicken littles foolishly believe they are smarter than BB.
 
Threads like this really make the thread starter look like a douche even though I know he isn't. No offense, Rob, as you know I often enjoy your posts. As for the homers in the offseason, I can find plenty of instances where the "homer" in question starts the thread down the vile, ad hominem path. I can find just as many, if not more, instances of this happening than it does with the "chicken littles" or "contrarians".

As for the past offseason, people who make claims that this team, particularly on defense, had some holes on it that could be exposed shouldn't be thrown in with some of the "chicken littles" on this forum. Hell, the thinness at DE can be at least partially blamed on that very fact. As for our record, I said 12-4 in the offseason. I saw Brady playing well, but not the best football of his career. I saw BB coaching much better than he did in 2009. I didn't see BB doing some of the best coaching of his career. Congrats to the team. 14-2, now let's ride the momentum into the postseason.
 
I think of all us homers the one due the most kudos is Andy because he's withstood the most overt abuse over fighting the good fight. There is nothing wrong with being positive if you have a rational basis (which is something Bill and Tom and this team have provided him for a decade now) for believing things will work out. There is nothing noble about being negative or critical when you're doing it purely on the basis of insisting it's the only way to be objective.

Homers get accused all the time of insisting BB is perfect and above reproach. With few exceptions that is not at all what we are saying. Like the song says, we're just convinced he is (and Tom is and the organization is) close enough to perfect for us...and nobody is closer despite all the selective kneejerk hype they garner for their fleeting moments of accomplishment. Consistency is the ultimate goal and the basis for believing there is nothing sheepish in admitting IBBWT. I questioned Bill's judgement on Randy Moss and it turns out he was right in the short term but I was in the long run...and the fact that he could see that and see past the siren song of freakish talent or hype to what really mattered which was system fit and heart of a champion means we were both right... kinda like with Bledsoe Brady. Which he where he initially earned my trust. :D

I wish someone else would have touched on this since I have Andy on ignore for reasons that have a lot to do with our battles over the offseason. However, it should be pointed out that Andy got drilled over his stances on the 2009 team most of the time in the offseason. Not for the current team. A lot of stuff that's happened with the current team (specifically the defense) has proven some of his arguments about the 2009 team to be false.

However, you are right. Andy was the guy that took the most crap around here.
 
I've been dismissed off the internets as a huge Boston homer when talking sports, and I actually had money on the Pats going to the Superbowl this year before the regular season.

HOWEVER, one part of this thread I dislike, is over the past few years there have been plenty of blind homers who vilified posters who brought up valid points that are now undeniable, and these blind homers now in some odd way feel vindicated. One example is how Laurence Maroney was not a good running back. Another example is how the defense needed to generate more turnovers through more creative blitzes or jamming receivers, or how about pushing for a more balanced unpredictable offense, which finally arrived this year? Much of the amazing success this season validates what the naysayers (yet Patriot supporters) had been saying - that BJGE can play, that the defense needed better coaching, and that the offense needed to stop being one-dimensional.

Just because Belichick is so great (yet still one man), some homers here lost major credibility by blindly defending every single move, without admitting that most of their debate position wasn't based on their own judgement but simply to defend whatever it was that the team did.

It isn't a big accomplishment to pat yourself on the back for blindly defending every single move while this team hasn't won any rings over the past 6 years. One can acknowledge that Belichick and Brady are as close to perfect at their jobs that we will ever see, while at the same time not having to feel smug over defending past moves that clearly were not correct in retrospect.

.

I think you've misconstrued some things. We're saying, in BBWT. Yet some of the BB doubters flip a wig any time the BBBB (BB Buttboys) mention that Dean Pees was a huge problem on D. So, when you say, we needed better coaching on D, the BBBB (count me in) say, Yes, BB is going to give it to us.

The BBBB are not people that have no critical bones in their body. They are people who are critical of people not named BB and Brady.
 
The age old problem with this website is that objectivity is scarce. I think the chicken littles have gone crazy lately. Slamming Bob Kraft over Mankins was a low point for this board IMO.

I think the homers have won the argument over the years because frankly the Pats and Belichick and Brady are so freaking good.

I like to be objective but when this team is consistently a dynasty after nine years, the homer view has become the objective view. Things will turn out okay. Not perfect but good enough, and often great.

Objectively speaking, Belichick has won and the chicken littles got smoked.
 
Trust is earned over a period of time. So when us homers say we trust BB, it's bcause of his track record. He has not been perfect and other than myself, I don't know of any perfect people.

Homers will not jump on every move and be critical. We will wait and see and give BB the benefit of the doubt. He's earned that over the past 11 years.

BTW, this patsfans. The root word for fan is fanatic. So if you are a fan then you are a fanatic, and therefore a "homer".:D
 
from the thread, Kudos to Andy for hanging in there.
I was not here posting, so i cannot really bring credit to myself.
But I have been hopefully enthusiastic since the Bengals game, felt it
all year listening to EEI, especially when Newme (sp?) was on...

Miami the first time had me jumping and dancing, loving it. Just a great, fun season.
*********

This stuff is 99% emotions 78% of the time.
It is easy to get carried away in both directions.
But at this point, a level of confidence in BB is justified.
So folks who dogged BB or TFB?
Some time is due in the Hall of Shame, baby.

My favorite high profile gaffe was from Shaunnessy, after the Moss
trade saying this demonstrated BB had given up on the season.
:rocker:

On the scale of Doh, I think this one outdistances Borges call that Bledsoe to Buffalo would be the Pats biggest errah evah.

I had enough of Drew, but he was a classy...
(skipped the parade, d%#*!@t).
And the most prolific passer the Pats ever had.
(tipped passes? More tipped passes????)

So My point is Borges had some reason to say what he did, there were facts, some experience, understandable loyalty to the man.

This cannot be said of Shaunessy's statement.
His conclusion that BB would give up on the season?
Assumes facts not in evidence.
Only a wiener would say that, in between complaining
that they are running up the score.

:cool:
 
I saw two great coaches get run out of town with the EXTREMELY STUPID statement: "The Game has passed him by!".

Paul Brown vowed revenge and lived to found an expansion club; and get to a Superbowl before the Team named after him, still never did get there. (And never has, although after it moved the Browns/Ravens did get there once).

Don Shula was older, and chose to retire and stay retired, but I'm sure he could have gone elsewhere and won again.

As Bum Phillips said of him: "He can take his'n, and beat your'n. Then he can take your'n and beat his'n!"
 
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Threads like this really make the thread starter look like a douche even though I know he isn't. No offense, Rob, as you know I often enjoy your posts. As for the homers in the offseason, I can find plenty of instances where the "homer" in question starts the thread down the vile, ad hominem path. I can find just as many, if not more, instances of this happening than it does with the "chicken littles" or "contrarians".

As for the past offseason, people who make claims that this team, particularly on defense, had some holes on it that could be exposed shouldn't be thrown in with some of the "chicken littles" on this forum. Hell, the thinness at DE can be at least partially blamed on that very fact. As for our record, I said 12-4 in the offseason. I saw Brady playing well, but not the best football of his career. I saw BB coaching much better than he did in 2009. I didn't see BB doing some of the best coaching of his career. Congrats to the team. 14-2, now let's ride the momentum into the postseason.

First, I have looked like a douche long before I started this thread. I don't know how this thread could make me look any more like a douche than other threads I have been involved with in the past. Not possible.

Second, when I am talking about Chicken Littles and contrarians, I am not talking about people with legitimate concerns about this team. There were plenty going into the season. I am talking about the people who seemed to have inside information and knew better than anyone else that Brady didn't care about football anymore or Belichick has lost touch with today's NFL because the game has changed so much. Someone worrying about the secondary going into the season with Bodden out and no one starting other than Meriweather having more than one year of experience doesn't fall into that category. There were a lot of people on this board who acted like Brady has checked out and just here to cash in to support his Hollywood and European lifestyle in the offseason, Belichick became a 90 year old man with altzheimer overnight, and this team was nothing better than a 3-4 win team. Those are the people I am addressing.

Third, most of any threads that I was in with "vile, ad hominem" paths usually was reaction to irrational Chicken Littles or contrarians. I never attacked anyone who addressed me with a rational, non-confrontational argument that had any validity. If you notice, most of my confrontations are usually with guys/gals who are well known on this board for being confrontational themselves.

If you or anyone else had legitimate concerns about this team and felt they would struggle this year and possibly not make the playoffs, I am not talking about you. You may not have had the confidence in Belichick and this team as others, but you are not a Chicken Little. If you thought Brady lost his passion for football because he has entered a different phase of his life or that the game has gotten too complicated for Belichick to keep up, then I am directing my original post to you and you should eat a lot of crow for ridiculous thinking. There were legitimate concerns about this team going into the season (even for the first few months), Brady's dedication for football and Belichick's ability to coach were not legitimate concerns though.
 
Thank god I did not make a preseason prediction for the 2010 NFL Season. ;)
 
I already noted where my post about win totals during Ian's Monday night posts. Here is just a follow up, since a mod saw fit to single me out:

n the end, assuming Brady's health, Welker at 90% or so, improved production from WR3 and Mayo being better on that knee, I expect the Patriots to at least match last season's record and win the division.*

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/353372-predict-patrots-2010-record-page2.html#post1866851

By the way, I've got the team winning the division. I'm just not willing to pretend that problems aren't problems.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/556682-reiss-ominous-sign.html#post2103593

I've got the team winning the division

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/580927-expectations.html#post2131492

As for record, I think I had 13-3 or 12-4.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/19/350902-monday-night-roundtable-wrap-up-chat.html#post1858676

So, I had the Patriots winning the division with 12-13 wins (I recently posted 14, because I'd misremembered my total during the Monday Night threads Ian started, but found the threads and self-corrected the numbers).

The mod who thought he should call me out individually?

My preseason prediction (more hope) was for 11-5 with the young D gaining experience and gelling after T-giving...
 
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When I said good riddance to Randy Moss and said that he would crash and burn along with Favre & Childress I wasn't being a homer.

Just the astute football analyst that I usually am. :D
 
I saw two great coaches get run out of town with the EXTREMELY STUPID statement: "The Game has passed him by!".

Paul Brown vowed revenge ...

Got me going, my Dad loved Brown, and Ted Williams,
regaled me with the tales. I felt like I knew Otto Graham personally.
Told me he thought Graham's standing by his friend the Doc who was
accused, (and effectively publicly "found guilty") of murdering his wife had destroyed Graham publicly.
That was the character basis of "The Fugitive".
Doc was eventually found to have been innocent.
Anyway, found this book....
Neat excerpt, I think relevant to your post. Fun to read, even if it isn't..
Hope the post is not too big...
:)
JIM BROWN The Fierce Life of an American Hero
MIKE FREEMAN
from p104

Otto Graham was an assistant coach for the all-star game under
Lambeau, and within the irst few days of practice, Graham ap-
proached Jim and told him: “You will never make it in the NFL.”
“Otto would change and become a diferent person later in his
life, I believe,” said one black Hall of Fame player who knew Gra-
ham and asked not to be identiied. “But Otto told a number of
black players they would be no good. He told me that. He told Gale
Sayers that. He told several other black players the same thing, and
a bunch of the black players he told that would end up in the Hall
of Fame.” In 1964 Graham would go even further, claiming at a Pro
Football Hall of Fame luncheon that “the Browns won’t win any-
thing as long as [Jim] Brown is there.”

The players on the Browns were as curious about Jim as he was
about them. They had heard of this supposedly fearsome and hardy
runner and had watched him on television in the all-star game.
What Jim did off the field had also caught their attention. Jim was
the first player in professional football to use an agent—an extremely
controversial decision at the time. Players in the NFL feared
using representation because it was commonplace for owners to
refuse to negotiate with any player who attempted to use an agent,
and even trade a player who hinted at utilizing one. Jim hired his
longtime supporter from Manhasset, Ken Molloy, to handle his
contract with Paul Brown. When the several days of discussions
between Molloy and Paul concluded, it was decided that Brown
would earn a base salary of $12,000 and a signing bonus of $3,000. It
was the most money any Browns rookie had ever been paid up to
that point.

The Browns were a collection of gritty, tough stars, many of
whom had played for Paul for some time. They knew Paul’s system
and what to expect from Paul himself, and in the summer of 1957
they began to pull Jim aside, one on one, informing Jim of what
life was like under Paul, whom some called “the Man.” One of
those players who initially approached Jim was Lenny Ford, the all-
American from the University of Michigan. Ford symbolized the
stoutness of the Browns. In his first season as a professional, against
the Chicago Cardinals, Ford suffered a broken nose, two cheek-
bone fractures, and three lost teeth when Chicago fullback Pat
Harder elbowed him. It took plastic surgery to repair Ford’s face.
He returned later in the season wearing a specially fitted mask for
protection. Ford was so intimidating as a defender that Cleveland
shifted its defense from a six-man front to a four-man line so the
defense could better take advantage of Ford’s pass-rushing skills.
On one of the irst days of training camp, Ford spoke to Jim,
and what Ford said was stunning to a man who was quickly becoming
numb to what seemed like a series of eye-opening experiences.

As Brown recounted in his 1964 book, Ford told him: “First, when
you’re running through plays in practice, always run twenty yards
downfield. Don’t just run through the hole and then jog a few steps
and lip the ball back. The man doesn’t like that. Run hard for
twenty yards, even if you feel silly. He likes to see that.”
Ford paused, and looked harder at Brown, attempting to emphasize
what was coming next. “Secondly, keep your mouth shut
when he speaks to you. When he tells you how to run a play, run it
the way he tells you. If you have an idea for improving the play,
keep it to yourself. Suggestions make the man mad. If you’re pretty
sure you can make more ground by changing the play, change it in
the game. Don’t change it in practice. Run it your way in the game
and hope it works, and if it does, don’t say anything. Just make your
yardage and act like it was a mistake.”

Jim was taken aback by Ford’s warnings. To Jim, it sounded as if
the team feared Paul so much they would rather deceive him than
level with him. “Also,” finished Ford, “don’t start any conversations
with the man. Don’t initiate anything. You see something wrong,
let it go. He does all the talking here.”
Jim was perplexed. His initial talks with Paul showed no con-
trolling aspects in Paul’s nature. Paul was smiling and approving
in his dealings with Jim as the summer practice months turned into
preseason games. In the second game, against the Pittsburgh Steel-
ers, Jim scored a touchdown from 40 yards out in the third quarter
after outrunning the entire Steelers secondary. Paul pulled Jim out
of the game, waving for Jim to stand next to him.
“You’re my fullback,” Paul said. Then Paul casually moved away
from Jim down the sideline.
Jim would consider that moment one of the greatest of his
career. Paul Brown wanted him. Jim at first thought he and Paul
would share the kind of umbilical closeness Jim had shared with
Walsh and the coaches back at Manhasset. Jim did not understand
why the players feared and at times hated Paul.

Just a short time later, Jim and Paul would become quiet enemies,
two men that reviled each other, but rarely spoke a cross word about each other in public.

The relationship between Paul and Jim should not have been
one made in dysfunctional hell. Paul had courageously signed black
players when to do so was socially unacceptable, possibly even dan-
gerous, and Jim initially saw Paul as a white man stemming from
the same genetic mold as Walsh, Molloy, and Simmons, men who
had been beneicial to his life and career, not hurtful.
The core of Jim and Paul’s problems was not just a changing
football league, but a shifting society.

Paul could not deal with an
America that was changing so quickly. Jim was a child of that
change. The country’s emphasis on individual rights and freedoms
began trickling down to football. But individuality was contrary to
Paul’s beliefs. A young Jim was maturing into an activist who re-
fused to bend to Paul’s will, and Paul declined to change the ways
that had made him the most successful coach in football.

“Jim was not going to score touchdowns and get beat up physi-
cally and then stay quiet and say nothing once the game was over,”
said former Cleveland teammate Bobby Mitchell. “He found the
notion offensive that he was supposed to be this quiet brute. Jim
was anything but quiet. Jim was opinionated. Under Paul, players
were not supposed to be opinionated. You were supposed to just
shut up and play.”

Mike Freeman - Jim Brown.pdf - Jim Brown
//nfl-media.com/Libros_Football/Mike%20Freeman%20-%20Jim%20Brown.pdf
 
Let me say this (and I know it sounds insulting) but anyone who has been watching the Patriots for a long time knows that the confidence in this coach and QB is like nothing we could have ever imagined experiencing. I strongly feel it's the younger crowd that is so hypercritical and a little doubtful of Belichick and Brady. Those of us that have been around would NEVER make that mistake.

I agree with this, but would point to another factor - when your experience with the team is regularly steamrolling people by record scores, it must seem like it's all gone wrong when they don't score every drive or find themselves in a tight ball game. No perspective, whereas those of us who have been with the team since the bad ol' days simply find it all a bit hard to believe and know we're watching something beautiful and ephemeral.
 
I've been dismissed off the internets as a huge Boston homer when talking sports, and I actually had money on the Pats going to the Superbowl this year before the regular season.

HOWEVER, one part of this thread I dislike, is over the past few years there have been plenty of blind homers who vilified posters who brought up valid points that are now undeniable, and these blind homers now in some odd way feel vindicated. One example is how Laurence Maroney was not a good running back. Another example is how the defense needed to generate more turnovers through more creative blitzes or jamming receivers, or how about pushing for a more balanced unpredictable offense, which finally arrived this year? Much of the amazing success this season validates what the naysayers (yet Patriot supporters) had been saying - that BJGE can play, that the defense needed better coaching, and that the offense needed to stop being one-dimensional.

Just because Belichick is so great (yet still one man), some homers here lost major credibility by blindly defending every single move, without admitting that most of their debate position wasn't based on their own judgement but simply to defend whatever it was that the team did.

It isn't a big accomplishment to pat yourself on the back for blindly defending every single move while this team hasn't won any rings over the past 6 years. One can acknowledge that Belichick and Brady are as close to perfect at their jobs that we will ever see, while at the same time not having to feel smug over defending past moves that clearly were not correct in retrospect.

.
There is a huge difference between judging the quality of the structure, philosophy, work ethic, intelligence, commitment and decision making ability of the organization and supporting its decisions vs someone predicting they will ultimately be wrong, and endorsing every move.

Most of the debate revolves around judging before the facts are in. Giving the benefit of the doubt may in fact be a homerific quality, but with THIS organization it is also a very intelligent approach.
 
I already noted where my post about win totals during Ian's Monday night posts. Here is just a follow up, since a mod saw fit to single me out:



http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/353372-predict-patrots-2010-record-page2.html#post1866851



http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/556682-reiss-ominous-sign.html#post2103593



http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/580927-expectations.html#post2131492



http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/19/350902-monday-night-roundtable-wrap-up-chat.html#post1858676

So, I had the Patriots winning the division with 12-13 wins (I recently posted 14, because I'd misremembered my total during the Monday Night threads Ian started, but found the threads and self-corrected the numbers).

The mod who thought he should call me out individually?

This thread is not so much about predictions. It is all about people who were wet blankets anytime anyone here got excited about the team and their targets who stayed true to their opinions in the face of the cheap "homer, koolaid drinker" tag that was thrown about.

You have shown an inability to enjoy anything or even fathom to allow anyone else to do so. The word "homer" and "koolaid" has been thrown around by no one here more than you. Everyone here knows that as a fact.

You fully realize you've been a consistent killjoy when anyone here got excited about the team. You are known by all here as the most "predictable" (no pun intended) poster on this site. The smallest benefit of the Pats steamrolling this season is the fact that you actually were shamed into changing your famous sig - - even YOU felt it too out of touch by this time. Well welcome to our side, we have plenty of room for you!

Most of us have been truly enjoying this ride. We are plain lucky to have Kraft, Belichick and Brady. Some people count blessings, others count regrets.
 
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I think of all us homers the one due the most kudos is Andy because he's withstood the most overt abuse over fighting the good fight. There is nothing wrong with being positive if you have a rational basis (which is something Bill and Tom and this team have provided him for a decade now) for believing things will work out. There is nothing noble about being negative or critical when you're doing it purely on the basis of insisting it's the only way to be objective.

Homers get accused all the time of insisting BB is perfect and above reproach. With few exceptions that is not at all what we are saying. Like the song says, we're just convinced he is (and Tom is and the organization is) close enough to perfect for us...and nobody is closer despite all the selective kneejerk hype they garner for their fleeting moments of accomplishment. Consistency is the ultimate goal and the basis for believing there is nothing sheepish in admitting IBBWT. I questioned Bill's judgement on Randy Moss and it turns out he was right in the short term but I was in the long run...and the fact that he could see that and see past the siren song of freakish talent or hype to what really mattered which was system fit and heart of a champion means we were both right... kinda like with Bledsoe Brady. Which he where he initially earned my trust. :D
Thanks.
Really, this organization has simply proven that it does a better job of managing all aspects of football than any other.
Most of the things I comment on are short sighted views, or opinions that arent supported by the facts.
I would probably have been considered a Chicken Little before BB. But I observe this organization and I see, overall, they are better than any other. That makes it hard for me to accept the 'analysis' that a decision was bad before the results are even known.
Truth is the argument makes itself when you are on BBs side. The problem is that many disagreements turn into stupid battles of semantics by people wanting to flex their internet muscles. I have a terribly bad habit of not having a lot of restraint in responding to poorly thought out points.
 
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