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Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by patsfan13, Apr 6, 2011.

  1. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ryan unveils his plan. Not a total solution a solid first step in fixing our economy. If this prevents our National Debt from going >100% of GDP (as Obama plan dictates) the economy will have a chance to grow.



    Paul Ryan: The GOP Path to Prosperity - WSJ.com



    Editorial: Ryan's Budget Plan Gets The Job Done - Investors.com

  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?

    The health insurance companies are all having multiple orgasms.. now they will "set up" some unsuspecting souls, aka the tea party, tell them some lies, sugarcoat the ryan plan, pour massive amounts into these unsuspecting nitwits and make a lot of noise...

    The reality is that old folks vote a lot and this could be the gift wrapped package that Obama was waiting for.. if you think that private insurers has anyone's best interest in mind except their bottom line, then you need serious medication..
  3. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree Pelosi and Reid never introduced a budget last year. Obama has never proposed anything to deal with the structural debt the country faces. So they waited for someone to make the first move so they could demagogue, lie and have a campaign issue.

    This proposal will form the basis for the debate in the next election. Leadership vs cowardice.

    BTW for those interested a short course on the debt crisis:

    HERE IT IS: Your Short Course On Why The US Is Screwed
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    All this proposal does is continue the american plutocracy, and create more wealth for the private insurance companies.. the divide will continue to increase.

    How will this reconcile with the dreaded health care act? At first glance it appears to be somewhat dependent upon it??
  6. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is warmed over Reagonomics
  7. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Looking forward to reading about this in the journal

    At first glance, disappointing that it doesn't appear to do much about military spending -- but maybe that was in order to curry favor with his fellow pubbies who won't take kindly to a lot of spending cuts and who would be particularly upset over military spending

    One good thing about this, regardless of the details, is that it should further focus discussions on decreasing government spending, which is a step toward decreasing overnment's overall size and reach.
  8. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    I happen to like Ryan, but lately he seems to have made a deal with the Owners for the promise of the Big Job down the road. I don't like the idea of handing more profits to insurance companies. Not good. Senior votors still think the Republican Party represents "family values" and the Goode Olde Days of gays in the closet, Jesus and big band music. Wait til they find out that they're waterboys for their Owners.
  9. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Listening to a discussion of this on the radio today, there is no mention of scaling back the DOD, its contractors and prerequisite fraud.
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A typical Republican proposal puts the onus of deficit reduction on the backs of those who our economy has failed to help under the unsubstantiated belief that trickle down economics works. Reagan created record deficits in order to pump enough money into our economy to create the illusion that the tax cuts were beneficial. His trickle down economics did not work. In fact, the separation between the rich and the middle class/poor only increased under his proposals.

    If we want to fix the deficit we need to raise taxes on the wealthy, get out of Afghanistan, and punish companies that abuse our markets by relocating to other nations. Ryan's proposal shows he has heartfelt love for money, but is stone cold for the needs of the needy.

    Personally, I think this survival of the fittest mentality is designed to protect white privilege as the country continues to advance towards whites being a minority.
  11. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    From an article on the proposal:



    Here is a link to the entire propoals:

    The Roadmap Plan | A Roadmap for America's Future | The Budget Committee Republicans
  12. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    House Budget Chairman Paul Ryan's 2012 proposal recommendation is disguised deliberate attempt by wealthy conservative political agendas to eliminate Medicare! RICH & WEALTHY political agenda to bring Medicare demise has been around ever since Medicare became law. Ryan pretends help by disguising this as a gift to America's senior and disabled Americans to buy time for republican conservatives to eliminate senior Americans & disable Americans services under Medicare---which is two thirds of'em---allowing "White House" to be conquered to enrich the rich and wealthy even more.

    It is an attempt, like "tax pledge" to sneak through a TROJAN HORSE as a gift for middle class that will be used to downsize federal government taking away Medicare services for American seniors and disabled Americans! Such strategy will continue to keep states struggling and downsizing! Sound familar?

    Why do we keep harping on the need for entitlement reform while continuing to hand out windfalls to the super rich and the Pentagon? Why do the poor "need to be reformed" but the rich don't?
  13. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Without reform medicare will go broke. The current spending is unsustainable.
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Without tax increases, it is unsustainable. Bring back the death tax, which is largely a tax cut for the wealthy and restore tax rates to the good economic years of Kennedy when the top tax rate was around 70%, and we can take care of many of our problems, including getting those who are too poor to pay taxes to earn money with which to pay taxes. Fact is that since Reagan, the deficit has consistently grown under both Democrats (with the exception of Clinton) and Republicans. Reagan has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the United States, and Ryan continues the process with an even more reactionary approach.
  15. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This tax destroy family businesses like family farms, the income used to create the wealth to be passed down was already taxed. There is no justification for double taxing that wealth other than government greed. Better that wealth be given to family member to create more wealth.


    Looking to the past.......well if we get rid of all the entitlements enacted after Kennedy and give back the tax loopholes maybe you could get a deal.



    The status quo of the welfare state is what is reactionary these days. Socialist welfare states are in trouble around the world. The failed 'progressive' policies of the past don't work when you have gone from 14 workers per retiree to <3 workers per retiree. Game over Patters.
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That point of view protects the landed elite, especially those families that inherited their wealth as a result of discrimination of the past, including the recent past. That said, I'm all for doing more to protect family farms, but by going after the agribusinesses which are the ones who have destroyed the family farms. .

    We should invest the money in workfare programs. I've had clients who have applied for as many as 60 jobs, but failed to get anything, in part because they have CORIs or they have the lack of social skills that is common among the mentally ill and cognitively impaired. There are tens of thousands of such people in the Boston area.

    Which of the countries with the low per capita deficits do you think we should emulate? How about Cuba?

    List of countries by external debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Russia also has fairly low debt:

    http://www.visualeconomics.com/gdp-vs-national-debt-by-country/
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
  17. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    right, family farms were destroyed by the estate tax...

    If you put a decent sized threshold ($10mm?) in place, there is virtually zero threat to any family businesses or family homes.


    Sure there is -- it's better to tax income of heirs who've done nothing but be born into the right family than to tax the income of hard-working people, rich or poor, who've actually generated the income for themselves.


    Any stats to support the contention that subsequent generations in families with sizable estates actually do that?
  18. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    while I agree with you about the estate tax, I totally disagree re. 70% tax rates -- it's confiscatory. Why should the government take $2 of every $3 from anybody?
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's a marginal tax rate, so it only kicks in after making a significant amount. It's been as high as 94%. I think under Ike, over $14 million in income generated that kind of tax, but of course the big loophole was that if you invested it, it would be taxed at a capital gains rate, thus stimulating investment.

    At any rate, my view of taxes is that they are a tool to address the economy. They are not something that should be fixed at a permanent number. Right now, we need to generate income to pay down the deficit. Raise taxes for a few years, and then lower them once the economy is doing better.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
  20. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Of course it's marginal -- that's not the point. and 94% is even more absurd.

    I'd agree with you about temporary increases (though 70%, 94%, etc. at any time just strike me as wrong), except that I don't trust politicians to keep temporary things temporary, especially when they generate revenue.
  21. DarrylS

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    If the rich had been paying their fair share, then there would have been no need to devise and implement the Alternative Minimum Tax scheme. Corporations are not the only entities who are adept at finding loopholes and shelters to evade their tax-paying responsibilities. The day I see a CEO needing to choose between eating and paying taxes is the day I will agree that this nation's wealthy are overtaxed.

    The tax debate cannot be separated from examinations of how the wealthy acquired their wealth: given the historical evidence of declining wages for the majority of workers and increasing salaries, bonuses, and "golden parachutes" for top-level executives, it is clear that a significant portion of the wealth owned by the top 5% has been stolen from working- and middle-class people. Corporate profits posted from the 4th quarter 2008 to the 3rd quarter 2010 offer a prime example: Of $609 billion NET domestic profits, $171 billion came from decreased wage and benefits expenditures. In plain English, pay cuts, benefits cuts, and unemployment for workers produced $171 billion in PROFIT for American corporations and, no doubt, tidy big bonuses for the executive hatchet-men...during the worst recession seen since the Great Depression. That $171 billion retained in workers' pockets would have paid mortgages, bought food, funded college educations, paid federal and local taxes, and permitted modest discretionary spending that could have helped small businesses stay in business. By their actions, their hoarding of cash and their applying consistent downward pressure on workers' wages and benefits, the wealthy prove time and again that they couldn't care less for the nation from which they leech their profits.

    Tax the rich, feed to poor, until there poor no more.. the assault on the middle and lower classes continue, by the robber barons in the legislature.
    The prez of Blue Cross, United Health Care all say thank you Mr. Ryan.. we will reward you and your inner circle of rich cronies..
  22. patsfan13

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    Because Patters is a progressive who believes the money is the state's money not the worker who earns it. Business people are evil, union workers are good.
  23. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is the reason for a Flat Tax, to get rid of the tax breaks that favor the rich.



    Great Communist policies formulas from drugs addled rock stars ( though A Lee is a great guitar player).
  24. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    That's your standard, huh?


    How about the many people who build companies and generate their wealth that way?

    My companies are relatively small right now, but we continue to grow, and as we do so, we hire people who usually are out of work. They don't get paid a ton and they don't get benefits. At some point I'd like to offer healthcare and 401(k)s, but right now I'm re-investing all of our earnings into the company's growth.

    Every one of employees has made more than me or my partners. We've barely drawn any income (well under 6 figures) over the past 2 years because we believe in our business.

    So if we wind up growing our companies to the size we aspire to, taking huge risks as we go and putting dozens of people to work, tell me again who I'm stealing from?
  25. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    See your not really supposed to get credit for any success you have you will be successful because you started out with advantages provided by government and so you are not entitled to the fruits of your labor and creativity. It doesn't matter that you probably work 60hr+ per week.


    Government creates jobs and wealth, not small businesses.

    This is the view of progressives.


    BTW much success with your business.
  26. PatsFanInVa

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    But can't afford it.

    Wait, maybe that's the idea...
  27. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Republicans in my opinion are, since Reagan (who launched his campaign in a blatantly racist way), trying to preserve the power of whites. In conservative states, they are targeting the poor (disproportionately minority) for disenfranchisement by creating the illusion of massive voter fraud to force people to get what Republicans consider acceptable ID (sometimes credit cards, state ID cards, etc.), which are not easy for the poor to get, and will discourage voting. They are doing what they can to intimidate Hispanics in numerous states. Have you ever noticed how much the righties focus on two so-called black panthers who intimidated voters for a few minutes until they were chased away by police. This is an example of how they are trying to play the race card.

    Their taxation policies are designed to preserve the wealth of the existing wealthy, which are mostly white people. Rather than reparations for slavery, they are trying to protect the gains from slavery and racism to the best of their abilities. We especially see this in the Confederate states.

    Thanks to massive tax cuts for the wealthy, not only do we have massive deficits, we are unable to reduce taxes for the middle class. We have no choice but to turn against the middle class and poor (as Ryan proposes) or tax the wealthy. Pick your poison. If the Republicans did not have their racist strategy in place, we would not be in such dire straits. Maybe the top rate would be around 50%, which would probably have left our deficit in vastly better shape.

    And let me just add the obligatory: I do not believe all Republicans are racist. I think many Republicans simply don't care about the poor or minorities, so look the other way.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
  28. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, that is the point of view of your paranoid fantasy of progressives.

    Don't think I ever said that, & I'm a progressive. We're all capitalists, no matter how much you want to re-live the 1950s. Well, those of use with capital are. But pretty much everybody supports capitalist market mechanisms.

    Simulataneously, pretty much everybody not talking out their assets supports redistributive features, government intervention, and social safety nets.

    Think about this Ryan character and his rape-of-medicare proposal: on the way out, he wants to issue vouchers ("premium supports" or some such sh1te.) That's a redistributive feature, albeit an insufficient one.

    We're all in a mixed economy mode, even the silly twits in the tea party (and we saw how happy they were when the mere fear of medicare changes was waved in front of them -- get your gubmit hands off my medicare!!!!)

    I agree Chico, congrats. May you grow your businesses through the roof and have good reason to hire like it's going out of style. We need that to happen.

    And I'm a big bad pro-gubmit progressive.

    PFnV
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2011
  29. DarrylS

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    My comments were referring to the wealthy, are you in that group??? From your comments you are not included in the comments..
  30. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Define "wealthy" -- by some Dems' definitions my partners and I all would be (even with minimal income the past 30 months).

    But you missed the point: "So if we wind up growing our companies to the size we aspire to, taking huge risks as we go and putting dozens of people to work, tell me again who I'm stealing from?"

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