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Lawmakers flip-flopping on Armenian Genocide bill

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Seymour93, Oct 16, 2007.

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  1. Seymour93

    Seymour93 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    This was always going to happen....

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/w...7a8ff9a9&ex=1350273600&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

    When will the timing be right to call a genocide a genocide? If we leave the decision up to Turkey then we know the answer: Never.
     
  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And the biggest flip flopper of them all, George Bush.. guess there is a difference between campaign rhetoric and the doing the right thing.

    http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=60

    "The twentieth century was marred by wars of unimaginable brutality, mass murder and genocide. History records that the Armenians were the first people of the last century to have endured these cruelties. The Armenians were subjected to a genocidal campaign that defies comprehension and commands all decent people to remember and acknowledge the facts and lessons of an awful crime in a century of bloody crimes against humanity. If elected President, I would ensure that our nation properly recognizes the tragic suffering of the Armenian people." (George W. Bush 2-19-2000)
     
  3. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    *****crickets chirping*******
     
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Given how badly we've antagonized the Muslim community with our unjustified war on Iraq, it's no wonder we find ourselves in a weak position right now. It's no surprise that we're backing down on this condemnation of one of the very few allies we have in the region. Just as when Bush cowered on 9/11 by not going to DC, he's cowering now. He's a weak man, who deserves our pity. Let's hope we can ride out the next year or so without further challenges that will force him to back down again. As far as Congress goes, it's clear we'll need a larger Democratic majority in order for it to get back its courage.
     
  5. fleabassist1

    fleabassist1 In the Starting Line-Up

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    #12 Jersey

    What the hell are the liberals trying to get out of this? Even further defeat for America?

    Just goes to show you what lengths liberals will go at to further destroy America.
     
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Oh, come on flea, isn't it apparent that we are politically and morally weak in the world? We don't hold the ethical high ground, except among loyal Republican who, like it or not, do not speak for much of the world. It doesn't mean that we're not still a great country, but right now our government does not have much political clout around the world, compared to any of our presidents in the last 20 or 30 years. Even Carter had far more clout in the ME than does Bush. As a result, we are kowtowing to every ME government we have relations with. We lack leverage. So, who is destroying America? Those who continue to defend the policies of the President are doing far more harm than liberals.
     
  7. fleabassist1

    fleabassist1 In the Starting Line-Up

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    #12 Jersey


    I'm not so sure of that. I think that you should give credit to Bush where it is due - yeah, I disagree with a lot of the things he has done... but you just have to give credit where its due. On this board I guess I defend Bush more then I criticize him, only because most people here bash him :singing:

    There is no reason whatsoever that we have to condemn turkey. Why right now? It just makes no sense. And besides, the Turkish government of today were not the ones responsible. Pigface and Pelosi do not need to push this. We already have a big enough task (With the Liberals not supporting the war effort - which is all fine and dandy, free speech and all that) without the liberals actively trying to destabilize the region more.
     
  8. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Um, despite being advised to stay away, Bush returned to Washington DC that very evening and addressed the nation from the Oval Office.

    Looks like just another example of liberals lying so much that they start to believe their own lies and can't differentiate fact from fiction.
     
  9. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    That's right... there are no major threats to European security so we don't have much clout because no one needs us. We had tons of clout during the Cold War because everyone was looking to us for protection from the USSR. The US was the only thing stopping the Soviets from marching into West Germany or Turkey (for example). So yeah, we had tons of clout.

    But now we've become a victim of our own successes. European allies simply don't need our protection anymore. It used to be the America's enemies were the enemies of the free world, but now other nations see America's enemies as America's problem.
     
  10. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Sure...and we can just forget that the Germans ever committed genocide against Russians, mentally retarded, homosexuals, gypsies and Jews. Seriously...lets just move forward.
    Problem is that Bush (once again) said this:
    "...If elected President, I would ensure that our nation properly recognizes the tragic suffering of the Armenian people." (George W. Bush 2-19-2000)

    He should have kept his mouth shut and moved forward.
     
  11. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    When an incident happens like 9/11, the Secret Service snatches up the prez, VP, etc. and follows protocal.

    The timing of this bill is retarded. I have no problems with the US recognizing genocide there. What I'm dumbfounded at is why it has to be now, after we've had 90 years to do so? Whay wasn't this recognized 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 year ago, etc... I'm sure the same people who are criticizing GW now, were doing the same in the 90's. The reality of the current situation is that whether we like it or not, our soldiers in Iraq & Afghanistan need Turkey as a throughway for there struggle on the ground. I couldn't care less about what bothers Turkey or not, but I do care about our GI's on the ground.
     
  12. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Um, we're invloved in a war in the ME. I think that has a little to do with our position on this. Let me ask you then, since we had so much more pull and power in the world & ME over the last 30 years, why didn't we recognize it as genocide then?
     
  13. fleabassist1

    fleabassist1 In the Starting Line-Up

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    #12 Jersey

    Yeah... "Germans" committed genocide against all those people. Oh wait, no they didn't! It was the Nazi party, not the German people....

    And yes, he should have kept his mouth shut... but he didn't.
     
  14. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Bruce Fein

    Armenian crime amnesia?
    Bruce Fein
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Fein
    October 16, 2007

    Armenian crimes against humanity and war crimes against the Ottoman Turkish and Kurdish populations of eastern and southern Anatolia during World War I and its aftermath have been forgotten amidst congressional preoccupation with placating the vocal and richly financed Armenian lobby.



    Last Wednesday, the Armenians hectored members of the House International Relations Committee by a 27-21 vote into passing a counterfactual resolution convicting the Ottoman Empire and its successor state, the Republic of Turkey, of genocide. A historically supportable resolution would have condemned massacres against Armenians with the same vigor, as it should have condemned massacres by Armenians against the innocent Muslim populations of the crumbling Ottoman Empire.



    Capt. Emory Niles and Arthur Sutherland, on an official 1919 U.S. mission to eastern Anatolia, reported: "In the entire region from Bitlis through Van to Bayezit, we were informed that the damage and destruction had been done by the Armenians, who, after the Russians retired, remained in occupation of the country and who, when the Turkish army advanced, destroyed everything belonging to the Musulmans. Moreover, the Armenians are accused of having committed murder, rape, arson and horrible atrocities of every description upon the Musulman population. At first, we were most incredulous of these stories, but we finally came to believe them, since the testimony was absolutely unanimous and was corroborated by material evidence. For instance, the only quarters left at all intact in the cities of Bitlis and Van are Armenian quarters ... while the Musulman quarters were completely destroyed."



    Niles and Sutherland were fortified by American and German missionaries on the spot in Van. American Clarence Ussher reported that Armenians put the Turkish men "to death," and, for days, "They burned and murdered." A German missionary recalled that, "The memory of these entirely helpless Turkish women, defeated and at the mercy of the [Armenians] belongs to the saddest recollections from that time."...


    Here is the whole article:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20071016/COMMENTARY02/110160004
     
  15. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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  16. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Words From The Same Article, Applicable Today

    ...A March 23, 1920, letter of Col. Charles Furlong, an Army intelligence officer and U.S. Delegate to the Paris Peace Conference, to President Woodrow Wilson elaborated: "We hear much, both truth and gross exaggeration of Turkish massacres of Armenians, but little or nothing of the Armenian massacres of Turks. ... The recent so-called Marash massacres [of Armenians] have not been substantiated. In fact, in the minds of many who are familiar with the situation, there is a grave question whether it was not the Turk who suffered at the hands of the Armenian and French armed contingents which were known to be occupying that city and vicinity. ... Our opportunity to gain the esteem and respect of the Muslim world ... will depend much on whether America hears Turkey's untrammeled voice and evidence which she has never succeeded in placing before the Court of Nations."...


    http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/083.html

    http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/092.html

    http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/132.html

    http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/album/052.html
     
  17. Turk

    Turk Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think we really knew about it over the last 30 years. It's only in recent years that the Armenian community has succeeded in drawing attention to it, and let's face it, I still don't think we fully understand the history.
     
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Clinton or Reagan would have ordered the Secret Service to take them to DC and would have stood in front of the White House and reassured the American people. Or, if they were really afraid, they would have ordered an evacuation of at least the part DC near the White House. Bush, the coward who cowered, was simply out to protect his own skin, and never had the nation's interests at heart.
     
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Bruce Fein

    That Bruce Fein article from the Washington Times is interesting, especially since it's from a conservative who, according to Wikipedia,

    "In March 2007, he founded the American Freedom Agenda with Bob Barr, David Keene and Richard Viguerie. Notable published writings by Fein include articles advocating the impeachment of former U.S. president Bill Clinton and current U.S. vice-president Dick Cheney and president George W Bush.

    "Fein is of counsel to Ron Paul's campaign for the 2008 Presidential nomination."
     
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