Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

BTW, I agree with you re: BJGE. The guy has been getting the job done while he's been in there.

Also, people need to take into account that that 3.7 YPC includes SEVERAL one yard plunges for TD's and 3rd and 4th and 1's last year. The guy always seemed to be getting the clutch short yardage situations. Maroney almost NEVER gets called upon for the short yardage situations.

That's just not true. Let's go back to Maroney against Jacksonville in the 07 playoffs: 6 of his 22 carries came with 2 or fewer yards to first down/TD

The next week: 4 of 25 carries.

How about in the SB 2 weeks later? 4 of 14 carries were with 2 or fewer yards to go.

Maroney yesterday: 1 of 16 carries. You'll see later that BJGE didn't have any either- there just weren't any short-yardage situations to run out of yesterday, all around. The Pats had a pesky habit of being perpetually in 1st and 10

So in that 4 game sample, 15 of Maroney's 77 carries came in those situations, or 19.5%.


BJGE
Yesterday: 0 of his 7 carries were with 2 yards or fewer to go.
11/09/08 vs. Buffalo: 6 of 26
11/02/08 vs. Indy: 3 of 15
10/20/08 vs. Denver: 3 of 13

12 out of 61 carries were with 2 yards or fewer to go: 19.6%

If you don't like the sample games that I used, just let me know and I'll pick different ones. There was no particular reason for picking hte ones that I did. Based on that, though, Maroney and BJGE ran in short-yardage situations with the exact same frequency.

There are a lot of legitimate points to be made in the Maroney debate, but you can't just make crap up. Or at least, if you're going to make stuff up, stick to the qualitative things that I can't disprove. You'll still be wrong, but at least I won't be able to outright prove it

 

[supafly]

Both teams had the running games going well. I don't think people should think too much of the individual accomplishments during this game unless they form part of a trend. If LoMo/BJGE/Brady look lousy next week, for example, that will be the more important game to look at, just because of the weather situation.

Let's just enjoy the game for what it was: An ass-kicking of the Titans.

Absolutely agreed, Deus.

Didn't mean to throw fire on a subject we could talk all night about, I just never understand why someone who does their job correctly is always talked down upon because of depth chart ranking.

I am not a LoMo hater/supporter, and I am not a BJGE hater/supporter. I just think that if say for example, Matthews did well at TE, we wouldn't say "yeah, but he's a 3rd string TE."

It just sometimes puzzles me why when we're just talking about Green-Ellis, people like Synovia always seem to beat on that 3.7 ypc stat. If we're comparing RB's, LoMo wins out every time. But when a UDFA comes in, puts up 5 TD's, multiple 100 yd games, never fumbles, etc--then he should get his due props too. Whether he went #6 overall, #199, or UDFA. Whether he's #1 on the depth chart, or #4 or #5, he still came in put the team first, and did his job.

But you are right, one game in the snow does not mean we are an elite team again, nor does it mean problems are solved, etc. It was a great time, and one for the memory banks. Now time to get back to work

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

Besides go to another team, I am just wondering what in your opinion, he'd have to do to become a #2 or #3 RB?

It's almost like he's penalized for being behind established NFL veteran talent RB's. If one comes in and excels and their jobs, then they shouldn't always be compared to bad stats, etc. I wouldn't think that was fair at a regular job, nor would you, most likely. It's almost unfortunate that he'll always be penalized for having some other guys ahead of him, there's a lot of depth at the particular position.

Pass someone on the depth chart. Last year, when Morris and Jordan came back, BJGE didn't take another snap. It was abundantly clear that he was a short-term injury replacement and nothing more.

McGowan flat-out outplayed Sanders and Chung, to the point that he's starting over both of them. There's just as much depth at safety as there is at RB, but it didn't matter because McGowan passed everyone that was ahead of him to force his way into the starting lineup. He had to pass an entrenched starter and a #2 draft pick, and he did.

If BJGE ever matches that accomplishment by passing a RB or two and earning carries outside of injury situations, then I'll pay him what you seem to feel is his proper due. For now, McGowan's situation isn't even close to comparable to BJGE's though for that very reason. They were both looking up from the bottom of the depth chart: McGowan climbed it and BJGE didn't.

And as for your assertion that there are talented RBs in front of him, I think that most people on this forum will disagree with you. I actually do agree with you, though: our top 3 RBs are good. Not BJGE's fault that he isn't as good as them: he just isn't. That's not a knock on him- he's a good back-of-the-rotation depth guy. A very good one, maybe.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I am not a LoMo hater/supporter, and I am not a BJGE hater/supporter. I just think that if say for example, Matthews did well at TE, we wouldn't say "yeah, but he's a 3rd string TE."

Has Synovia ever said that in a situation where he wasn't directly responding to someone who was saying that BJGE should be starting? To expand your analogy, if Matthews did well we'd all be pumped, but if people started lobbying for him to start over Watson, we'd pretty much all tell them to get real.

 

[fumbrunner]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

I am not sure exactly why using the example of a hall of fame player like Riggins, or Eddie George is 'irrelevant," but I guess it doesn't matter that much. If anything the NFL of old used even more running attacks, as it was at least just as prevelant, if not more. And it was also before the free agency era, so defenses that were good were able to use the same players yr after yr. I guess there are arguments/points to both sides, but I don't see it being 'irrelevant.'

What stat do I want to use? None. I just don't understand why many posters would put down a player or the players' use on their own team? The guy is basically a major overachiever just for making the team. He wasn't drafted, yet he came off the bench as called, did everything he was asked, had 100 yd games, has NEVER fumbled, and had 5 TD's last yr. Considering Morris' 7 TD's were the 2nd most for a RB, Green-Ellis' 5 weren't too bad. I am not really just talking about stats, I'm talking about a guy who comes in, does every single thing ever asked of him--and still is ripped on. WTF? Do these people just not like certain players on the team? Do they really just like the popular players like Brady and Moss? I don't get it. The only reason I think people rip on BJGE is when they make meaningless comparsions to #1 RB LoMo, then I totally get it.

But if we're not talking about LoMo, and just talking about a player coming in and doing every single thing they're asked, scoring 5 TD's, putting up multiple 100 yd games, never fumbling, etc--then why do people downplay his talents, and try to use stats etc, to try and make him look meaningless?

If we were talking about the BoSox, any average guy who came off the bench to pinch hit successfully, etc would be an average fan's dream. We'd say he's a great blue-collar guy who does what's asked, etc. But, since we're talking about the Pats a guy who does everything he's asked is looked down upon and considered a JAG etc?

Then you compare the same stats you use (3.7 ypc) and say that 2 hall of famers who have considerable same stats are 'irrelevant?' That's certainly your call, but I still don't get why people try to downplay his accomplishments. As I said, his just making this 53 man squad is a great overachieving accomplishment. If he turned the ball over, get tackled for losses, etc--then I'd understand it. What else do you really want him to do?

You say there's nothing that says he's more than replacement level last yr? How about the fact that Morris' 7 TD's were the 2nd most by a RB. Green-Ellis had 5. That's better than a replacement player, and that's a stat that proves it.

Great post and I agree 100%. Why any discussion on BJGE turns into a battle with the Maroney ballwashers on this forum is beyond me. He has performed well when in the lineup and has done little to garner this type of criticism. Touchy subject to Maroney supporters I guess.

 

[shmessy]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

That's just not true. Let's go back to Maroney against Jacksonville in the 07 playoffs: 6 of his 22 carries came with 2 or fewer yards to first down/TD

The next week: 4 of 25 carries.

How about in the SB 2 weeks later? 4 of 14 carries were with 2 or fewer yards to go.

Maroney yesterday: 1 of 16 carries. You'll see later that BJGE didn't have any either- there just weren't any short-yardage situations to run out of yesterday, all around. The Pats had a pesky habit of being perpetually in 1st and 10

So in that 4 game sample, 15 of Maroney's 77 carries came in those situations, or 19.5%.


BJGE
Yesterday: 0 of his 7 carries were with 2 yards or fewer to go.
11/09/08 vs. Buffalo: 6 of 26
11/02/08 vs. Indy: 3 of 15
10/20/08 vs. Denver: 3 of 13

12 out of 61 carries were with 2 yards or fewer to go: 19.6%

If you don't like the sample games that I used, just let me know and I'll pick different ones. There was no particular reason for picking hte ones that I did. Based on that, though, Maroney and BJGE ran in short-yardage situations with the exact same frequency.

There are a lot of legitimate points to be made in the Maroney debate, but you can't just make crap up. Or at least, if you're going to make stuff up, stick to the qualitative things that I can't disprove. You'll still be wrong, but at least I won't be able to outright prove it

Are you serious?

You're taking the 2007 Maroney as an example?

Why not the 1974 Mini Mack Herron?

The 2007 Maroney was pre-shoulder explosion. He is not the same runner psychologically since that injury. He has been afraid of hitting the los. Yesterday was the first time in a long time he has run with authority east-west. That's a good thing, but I would like to see him do it against a team that is not on ice skates.

I'm rooting for him. He is a good kid with oodles of talent. If he can play to his potential as much as BJGE does to his, then look out, because his potential is far greater. I certainly would love to see him get over his (understandable) gun-shy outlook regarding his shoulder.

But you using 2007 Maroney figures is like someone trying to make an argument for Matt Light based on his 2003 year.

 

[supafly]

Has Synovia ever said that in a situation where he wasn't directly responding to someone who was saying that BJGE should be starting? To expand your analogy, if Matthews did well we'd all be pumped, but if people started lobbying for him to start over Watson, we'd pretty much all tell them to get real.

Yeah, that's the whole premise of this discussion. if you go back a few pages, he justs pops in after people were simply discussing a good game by Green-Ellis. It almost seems like he just is always there with that stat, I heard it all offseason. I know all about the 3.7 ypc stat, and I agree that it should've been a little better. But at the same time, there's no reason to discourage someone's progress, because like you said, he has done his job well--and no, I don't think he should be starting, but OTOH, how would he ever get ahead of the others? It would almost be impossible, unless we expect him to rip 200 yds on 10 carries that he's given.

I'll have to respectfully disagree on your assessment of the safety depth, because I didn't ever expect Chung to start this yr--ever. Those who did were dreaming IMO. Meriweather was rotated in too his 1st yr, and that is what I expected from Chung. I give McGowan props for starting over Sanders, but he only really had 1 guy to beat. I didn't expect Chung to get thrown to the wolves, or we'd be in trouble as we saw in the preseason game. At least McGowan had some vet presence and could tackle very well. BJGE has 3 or 4 guys to overcome, if it was only 1 guy, I suspect he'd have done it by now. He has done everything asked of him, that's a fact. It's not like he has fumbled, or made stupid mistakes.

And I don't mean any disrespect to Synovia or anyone else, IMO, I consider just about everyone here a friend, so to speak. Most of us are just here to chill and talk about a common love, I'm certainly not here to disrespect anyone or talk smack, etc. I come here for people like you, the mods, Deus, Synovia, mgteich, etc because I feel you all have a lot to contribute, and you all probably know more than me.

I am very grateful for a place to learn more and discuss a great love of mine, but I am also a very humble person. Last thing I ever wanna do is argue, or get into pissing matches and heated discussions. It's just not worth it, not everyone's going to always agree, etc. But there always seems to be those who decide to try and bring up the depth chart, last yr's ypc, and a general negative vibe to the discussion of BJGE's abilities.

Like you stated, any kind of comparison to LoMo is stupid, IMHO. But when you remove Maroney from the argument/discussion, and forget about the depth chart, you have to give the kid props--and you personally do. It's just a lot here who refuse to do so that puzzles me.

 

[Reckedtrek]

Yeah, that's the whole premise of this discussion. if you go back a few pages, he justs pops in after people were simply discussing a good game by Green-Ellis. It almost seems like he just is always there with that stat, I heard it all offseason. I know all about the 3.7 ypc stat, and I agree that it should've been a little better. But at the same time, there's no reason to discourage someone's progress, because like you said, he has done his job well--and no, I don't think he should be starting, but OTOH, how would he ever get ahead of the others? It would almost be impossible, unless we expect him to rip 200 yds on 10 carries that he's given.

I'll have to respectfully disagree on your assessment of the safety depth, because I didn't ever expect Chung to start this yr--ever. Those who did were dreaming IMO. Meriweather was rotated in too his 1st yr, and that is what I expected from Chung. I give McGowan props for starting over Sanders, but he only really had 1 guy to beat. I didn't expect Chung to get thrown to the wolves, or we'd be in trouble as we saw in the preseason game. At least McGowan had some vet presence and could tackle very well. BJGE has 3 or 4 guys to overcome, if it was only 1 guy, I suspect he'd have done it by now. He has done everything asked of him, that's a fact. It's not like he has fumbled, or made stupid mistakes.

And I don't mean any disrespect to Synovia or anyone else, IMO, I consider just about everyone here a friend, so to speak. Most of us are just here to chill and talk about a common love, I'm certainly not here to disrespect anyone or talk smack, etc. I come here for people like you, the mods, Deus, Synovia, mgteich, etc because I feel you all have a lot to contribute, and you all probably know more than me.

I am very grateful for a place to learn more and discuss a great love of mine, but I am also a very humble person. Last thing I ever wanna do is argue, or get into pissing matches and heated discussions. It's just not worth it, not everyone's going to always agree, etc. But there always seems to be those who decide to try and bring up the depth chart, last yr's ypc, and a general negative vibe to the discussion of BJGE's abilities.

Like you stated, any kind of comparison to LoMo is stupid, IMHO. But when you remove Maroney from the argument/discussion, and forget about the depth chart, you have to give the kid props--and you personally do. It's just a lot here who refuse to do so that puzzles me.

Wow- well put Supafly! (Sincerely)

I'm shocked it took 7 posts into this thread for someone to piss all over Benjarvus. Some you guys do know he plays and plays hard for the Pats, right? Last year was his first season and did pretty well. This year he'll have his chances to prove his worth. By the end of the season and next season, we'll know what BB thinks of him. If he amounts to a solid #2 RB, I'll be more than happy about it. Obviously after last year and preseason, BB liked him enough to keep him on the 53, which is alot higher than many people on this board feel he's worth.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

I am not sure exactly why using the example of a hall of fame player like Riggins, or Eddie George is 'irrelevant,"

Eddie George is nowhere near a hall of famer

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

Yes, that's a good explanation. I'm not sure I agree w/ the 2nd rd Chung comparison, because I expected McGowan to be first off the bench ahead of Chung. Chung is a rookie and very green to NFL speed, etc. As far as beating Sanders, we all had our opinions of him, although I have always felt that Sanders did well enough. It's because of lack of depth at the position of safety, while there is a plethora of depth at RB--that's pretty much the answer there.

But to get to starter status, one must excel at their given opportunities, and always do what they're asked + be a total team player. Everyone has to start somewhere, and what more could the guy do to deserve a chance?

Fair enough- even if you had Chung being behind McGowan in the rotation, he still flat-out passed James Sanders. I agree that Sanders is a good safety, and is plenty good to start. That's the point- McGowan beat out a legitimate starter. BJGE is the #5 RB. He hasn't beaten out anyone. When they lost Jordan, they didn't promote BJGE- they moved Fred Taylor in. To get more credit from me, he'd have to move up, and he hasn't.

I agree that BJGE has done an awful lot with what's been asked of him. Same can be said for Russ Hochstein, Larry Izzo, Eric Alexander, and plenty of others. None of them ever broke the starting lineup, however, because they just weren't as good as the starters. More than any other team, the Pats are a meritocracy. If BJGE was better than the four guys ahead of him, they wouldn't be ahead of him. They are ahead of him because they're simply better football players. They're all significantly more athletic than he is. It's kind of a harsh reality, but it is what it is.

I don't regard that as a slam on BJGE though. He's fine, and in an emergency we can hand him the ball 15+ times and run our offense. There's a lot of value in that, and I like players like that a lot. Every team needs guys like that, especially the Pats. Some teams may regard #5 RB/STer as a throwaway role, but Belichick has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't. More than any other coach maybe ever, he's all about getting everything that he can out of every single spot on the roster.

So yeah, when someone talks about how Maroney should be benched to give BJGE more reps, I'll see it as being about as ridiculous as when people wanted to see Sanders benched so Chung could start from Day One (that crowd didn't last through the preseason), or the people who wanted to see Seymour benched for Jarvis Green last year (wasn't going to happen- Seymour playing on one leg in 2007 still started over Green), or even the people who wanted Watson cut in the preseason so David Thomas could start (that ended right around when Thomas got cut). I reacted to those people the same way that I'm reacting to the BJGE crowd- by pointout out that as much as I like Chung/Green/Thomas/BJGE, they're just not as good as the people ahead of them. That's all there is to it. If they were, they'd be starting/still here.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

Are you serious?

You're taking the 2007 Maroney as an example?

Why not the 1974 Mini Mack Herron?

The 2007 Maroney was pre-shoulder explosion. He is not the same runner psychologically since that injury. He has been afraid of hitting the los. Yesterday was the first time in a long time he has run with authority east-west. That's a good thing, but I would like to see him do it against a team that is not on ice skates.

I'm rooting for him. He is a good kid with oodles of talent. If he can play to his potential as much as BJGE does to his, then look out, because his potential is far greater. I certainly would love to see him get over his (understandable) gun-shy outlook regarding his shoulder.

But you using 2007 Maroney figures is like someone trying to make an argument for Matt Light based on his 2003 year.

Not at all. Because as I showed in my post, the original point that you claimed as absolute fact--that Maroney almost NEVER carries in short-yardage situations, and that's why his YPC is better than BJGE's--just isn't true. It's not true if you're talking about 2009, it's not true if you're talking about their respective 'last years', and it's not true if you're talking about career averages. So pick whatever timeframe you want- you're wrong no matter what. You were BSing and I called you on it, and I'll continue to do that because I have the facts to back me up and I intend to keep calling Maroney-bashers on the stuff that they keep making up.

BTW, Maroney originally injured his shoulder in 2006. I think you're confusing 2007 with 2006, because he was already clearly 'gun-shy' by 2007, and there were a ton of threads on this very forum about it. Maroney played through 2007 with one shoulder, only to get labeled soft by a bunch of the clueless posters because he struggled and had to sit some games out. It's part of why I get irritated everytime someone complains about the guy not being a gamer (apparently it's now okay to openly call him a ***** around here). They should try playing a 19 games at running back with a wrecked shoulder...
http://nwe.scout.com/2/629948.html

 

[Grizzafted]

i think some people are vastly underrating BJGE. he's far more than a JAG. i wouldn't be shocked to see him have a 200 yard game at some point this year.

 

[supafly]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

Eddie George is nowhere near a hall of famer

He may not end up making the HOF, but yeah, he's certainly in the discussion. There's no way you can really say "he's nowhere near a HOF."

That's opinionated for sure, many think he will make it. Here's a comparison of 2 Hall of Famers, John Riggins and Marcus Allen--to Eddie George.

Eddie George has made the Pro Bowl 4 times in 9 yrs, while HOF'er Marcus Allen has made it 6 times in 16 yrs. HOF'er John Riggins only made it 1 time in 15 yrs.

Eddie George has rushed for over 1000 yds 7 times, while HOF'er Marcus Allen only rushed for over 1000 yds 3 times. HOF'er John Riggins only did it 5 times in his 15 yr career. Eddie George did it way more times than both HOF'ers in way less number of yrs. Almost more than the 2 put together.

Eddie George has rushed for over 10,000 yrds in his career (9 yrs), while HOF'er John Riggins had about 11,000 in his career (15 yrs). HOF'er Marcus Allen has rushed for about 12,000 in his career (16 yrs). As you can see, George would've blown them both out of the water if he played anywhere even close to their careers, and has pretty comparable stats anyway. His average 1000 yd seasons were way more in his shorter career than the other 2 HOF'ers.

Eddie George has over 12,500 yds from scrimmage, while another HOF'er John Riggins has about the same (about 13,300). Riggins had 6 more yrs than George to achieve the same stats.

There's a comparison to 2 HOF'ers--John Riggins and Marcus Allen. As you can see he more than measures up in those categories in a way less amount of time.

Like I said, maybe he won't make it, but there's a decent chance he will too. Saying he's not even close is quite pushing it, to say the least.

 

[supafly]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

Fair enough- even if you had Chung being behind McGowan in the rotation, he still flat-out passed James Sanders. I agree that Sanders is a good safety, and is plenty good to start. That's the point- McGowan beat out a legitimate starter. BJGE is the #5 RB. He hasn't beaten out anyone. When they lost Jordan, they didn't promote BJGE- they moved Fred Taylor in. To get more credit from me, he'd have to move up, and he hasn't.

I agree that BJGE has done an awful lot with what's been asked of him. Same can be said for Russ Hochstein, Larry Izzo, Eric Alexander, and plenty of others. None of them ever broke the starting lineup, however, because they just weren't as good as the starters. More than any other team, the Pats are a meritocracy. If BJGE was better than the four guys ahead of him, they wouldn't be ahead of him. They are ahead of him because they're simply better football players. They're all significantly more athletic than he is. It's kind of a harsh reality, but it is what it is.

I don't regard that as a slam on BJGE though. He's fine, and in an emergency we can hand him the ball 15+ times and run our offense. There's a lot of value in that, and I like players like that a lot. Every team needs guys like that, especially the Pats. Some teams may regard #5 RB/STer as a throwaway role, but Belichick has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't. More than any other coach maybe ever, he's all about getting everything that he can out of every single spot on the roster.

So yeah, when someone talks about how Maroney should be benched to give BJGE more reps, I'll see it as being about as ridiculous as when people wanted to see Sanders benched so Chung could start from Day One (that crowd didn't last through the preseason), or the people who wanted to see Seymour benched for Jarvis Green last year (wasn't going to happen- Seymour playing on one leg in 2007 still started over Green), or even the people who wanted Watson cut in the preseason so David Thomas could start (that ended right around when Thomas got cut). I reacted to those people the same way that I'm reacting to the BJGE crowd- by pointout out that as much as I like Chung/Green/Thomas/BJGE, they're just not as good as the people ahead of them. That's all there is to it. If they were, they'd be starting/still here.

Good post. I like the examples of the other players and their respective positions, to make the point etc. Although, I still think Green-Ellis has a lot of competition this yr due to 1st rd pick LoMo being there, along with long tenured vet Fred Taylor added in the offseason. Faulk of course brings a lot to the competition too, and Morris has proven himself here. I still think it'd be pretty damn hard for BJGE to jump any of these, but next yr may be different.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

He may not end up making the HOF, but yeah, he's certainly in the discussion. There's no way you can really say "he's nowhere near a HOF."

That's opinionated for sure, many think he will make it. Here's a comparison of 2 Hall of Famers, John Riggins and Marcus Allen--to Eddie George.

Eddie George has made the Pro Bowl 4 times in 9 yrs, while HOF'er Marcus Allen has made it 6 times in 16 yrs. HOF'er John Riggins only made it 1 time in 15 yrs.

Eddie George has rushed for over 1000 yds 7 times, while HOF'er Marcus Allen only rushed for over 1000 yds 3 times. HOF'er John Riggins only did it 5 times in his 15 yr career. Eddie George did it way more times than both HOF'ers in way less number of yrs. Almost more than the 2 put together.

Eddie George has rushed for over 10,000 yrds in his career (9 yrs), while HOF'er John Riggins had about 11,000 in his career (15 yrs). HOF'er Marcus Allen has rushed for about 12,000 in his career (16 yrs). As you can see, George would've blown them both out of the water if he played anywhere even close to their careers, and has pretty comparable stats anyway. His average 1000 yd seasons were way more in his shorter career than the other 2 HOF'ers.

Eddie George has over 12,500 yds from scrimmage, while another HOF'er John Riggins has about the same (about 13,300). Riggins had 6 more yrs than George to achieve the same stats.

There's a comparison to 2 HOF'ers--John Riggins and Marcus Allen. As you can see he more than measures up in those categories in a way less amount of time.

Like I said, maybe he won't make it, but there's a decent chance he will too. Saying he's not even close is quite pushing it, to say the least.

Fair enough, but you're comparing George to the bottom rung of the HOF and he's still coming up short. And you can't really say that he would have blown their yardage statistics out of the water if not for a short career, because he actually had about as many characters as Allen or Riggins:

George: 2,865
Allen: 3,022
Riggins:2,916

The entire reason why his career was short was because he packed 15 years' worth of carries into a 9 year career. RBs don't age in years- they age in carries. Occasionally you get freaks like Curtis Martin that last forever under a heavy workload, but most guys that last into their 30s do so precisely because they carried light loads, and guys who flame out young do so because they carried heavy ones. That's why Tomlinson was washed up by 28, Larry Johnson was by 27, yet guys like Priest Holmes, Ricky Williams and Kevin Faulk are productive into their mid-30s. It's all about the carries. Pretty crazy to think about, and that's how history will remember George- as one of the last true workhorse RBs, who logged straight-up absurd numbers of carries. He wasn't remarkable with the ball in his hands by a long shot- he just always had the ball in his hands. That's why I don't even necessarily think it's favorable to compare a RB in a rotation to Eddie George. His only notable quality was that you could hand him the ball over and over and over again, so any RB who is like him but with fewer carries is... well, a pretty unremarkable RB.

Hell, even among his contemporaries, Eddie George wasn't exceptional. Here are guys who peaked around when he did (in no particular order):
1. Corey Dillon: over 11,000 yards and 82 TDs on a 4.1 career YPC for some truly terrible Bengals teams.
2. Curtis Martin: 14,000 yards, 90 TDs and 4.0 YPC.
3. Marshall Faulk: 12,000 yards rushing, almost 7,000 receiving, and 136 total TDs (4.3 YPC).
4. Jerome Bettis: 13,000+ rushing yards, 91 TD, 3.9 YPC
5. Terrell Davis: If you want to talk about shortened careers, start here. Only 1,655 carries, but at an absurd 4.6 YPC for 7,607 yards and 71 TDs
6. Barry Sanders (already in): 15,000+ yards, 99 TDs, 5.0 (!!) career YPC
7. Ricky Watters: Over 10,000 yards rushing and 4,000 receiving, 91 total TDs and 4.1 YPC
8. Emmitt Smith (already in): 18,000+ yards, 4.2 YPC, 164 TDs
9. Edgerrin James: 12,000+ yards, 4.0 YPC, 80 TD; 3,000+ yards receiving
10. Shaun Alexander: almost 10,000 yards, 4.3 YPD, 100 TD- another thousand yards receiving
11. Priest Holmes: 8,000 yards rushing, 86 TDs and 4.6 (!) YPC; an additional 3,000 yards receiving
12. Tiki Barber: 10,500 yards, 4.7 YPC; 5,000 yards receiving, 67 combined TD

All of those guys belong in the conversation with Eddie George, and most of them should (or did) get into the HOF well ahead of him. There's an absolutely huge RB logjam coming up, and only a couple of them are going to make it. Even if George did deserve it he'd probably get left out, but he doesn't deserve it in the first place. Not when there were guys who averaged a full yard per carry more over long careers who aren't in there.


I might be missing some, but the point is pretty clear: George wasn't even an elite RB in his own era. For him to get in, at least 4 more RBs who peaked around the same time that he did would have to get in ahead of him, and I just don't see there being any chance at all of that happening. FWIW, I don't think that Riggins or Allen should be there either.

 

[shmessy]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

Not at all. Because as I showed in my post, the original point that you claimed as absolute fact--that Maroney almost NEVER carries in short-yardage situations, and that's why his YPC is better than BJGE's--just isn't true. It's not true if you're talking about 2009, it's not true if you're talking about their respective 'last years', and it's not true if you're talking about career averages. So pick whatever timeframe you want- you're wrong no matter what. You were BSing and I called you on it, and I'll continue to do that because I have the facts to back me up and I intend to keep calling Maroney-bashers on the stuff that they keep making up.

BTW, Maroney originally injured his shoulder in 2006. I think you're confusing 2007 with 2006, because he was already clearly 'gun-shy' by 2007, and there were a ton of threads on this very forum about it. Maroney played through 2007 with one shoulder, only to get labeled soft by a bunch of the clueless posters because he struggled and had to sit some games out. It's part of why I get irritated everytime someone complains about the guy not being a gamer (apparently it's now okay to openly call him a ***** around here). They should try playing a 19 games at running back with a wrecked shoulder...
Scout.com: Report: Maroney Shoulder Injury A Concern

#1) If you read any of my posts about Maroney and have at least minimal english comprehension capability, you will clearly understand that I like Maroney, root for him to do well and believe he has oodles of talent.

#2) It's not demeaning him at all to say he has been gun-shy because of the injuries. Any person with a working cerebellum would be gun-shy - - it's normal.

3#) That being said, he has been gun-shy. At this point in time, I would not use him in a critical short yardage situation.

#4) By your numbers, last Sunday he was used ONCE in his 16 carries in short yardage situation. Evidently BB agrees.

 

[Synovia]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

#4) By your numbers, last Sunday he was used ONCE in his 16 carries in short yardage situation. Evidently BB agrees.

And BJGE didn't have any. Whats your point? You can't run in short yardage if there aren't any short yardage situations.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

#4) By your numbers, last Sunday he was used ONCE in his 16 carries in short yardage situation. Evidently BB agrees.

And BJGE ran ZERO times on short-yardage situations, so your original point is still wrong. There just weren't any short-yardage situations to run out of- we had more possessions than we did third downs, FFS.

I get that you root for Maroney, and that's fine and all, but you're still making 'points' about him that are flat-out wrong. I'm not objecting to your feelings--I don't care how you feel--I'm objecting to you inventing made-up and false reasons for why Maroney has a substantially higher YPC than BJGE.

 

[shmessy]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

And BJGE ran ZERO times on short-yardage situations, so your original point is still wrong. There just weren't any short-yardage situations to run out of- we had more possessions than we did third downs, FFS.

I get that you root for Maroney, and that's fine and all, but you're still making 'points' about him that are flat-out wrong. I'm not objecting to your feelings--I don't care how you feel--I'm objecting to you inventing made-up and false reasons for why Maroney has a substantially higher YPC than BJGE.

Whoa.

#1) You use the one game 0-7 stat for BJGE, then claim Maroney has a higher YPC??? Uh, uh. In that one game, BJGE had the higher YPC, do the math. Your "short yardage participation" stats for Maroney cover back to 2006 and 2007. Maroney physically and mentally ain't that guy anymore. That's like talking about Rodney Harrison as if it were still 2003.

#2) Arguing over one game stats is silly anyhow.

#3) Maroney has not been a good short yardage basher (for good and noble reasons, OK?) since 2007.

#4) BJGE was a very good short yardage guy last year and has not had horrific shoulder injuries to change that yet.

#5) We're talking about NOW, 2009. If you're looking at a 4th and 1 situation, I don't think BB is going to be calling #39 over BJGE anytime soon.

I'm glad Maroney had his first big production game this year. Let's see if he can do it against a Defense that is NOT wearing ice skates.

It is what it is.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Law Firm (BJGE) ran pretty well yesterday too.

Whoa.

#1) You use the one game 0-7 stat for BJGE, then claim Maroney has a higher YPC??? Uh, uh. In that one game, BJGE had the higher YPC, do the math. Your "short yardage participation" stats for Maroney cover back to 2006 and 2007. Maroney physically and mentally ain't that guy anymore. That's like talking about Rodney Harrison as if it were still 2003.

FFS, do you even remember what you originally said, which I then refuted? Let me remind you:

BTW, I agree with you re: BJGE. The guy has been getting the job done while he's been in there.

Also, people need to take into account that that 3.7 YPC includes SEVERAL one yard plunges for TD's and 3rd and 4th and 1's last year. The guy always seemed to be getting the clutch short yardage situations. Maroney almost NEVER gets called upon for the short yardage situations.

YOU PICK THE TIMEFRAME. It's not true in 2009, it isn't true in their last respective years, and it isn't true for their careers. Given that you were justifying the discrepency in their career YPCs, it's pretty obvious that you were making a career-long generalization, but that doesn't even matter. No matter what time period you're talking about, you were simply wrong. BJGE's lower YPC has absolutely nothing to do with carrying in more short-yardage situations. You made up your 'facts' and I called you on it- it is what it is.

Now you can either admit that you were making **** up and you were wrong (it won't kill you) or you can keep trying to move the goal posts. Either way, you're wrong.