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Law Enforcement - Retirement

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by weswelker#83, Oct 18, 2008.

  1. weswelker#83

    weswelker#83 In the Starting Line-Up

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    IRS & US Treasury wants to make 50 years of age the minimum age that law enforcement officers can retire, regardless of years of service. Many thousands of officers are eligible to retire at age 40 because they started at age 20 and will complete their 20 years of service a little bit after 2011.
    Most of the cops come in their 20's and most of them leave in their 40's. The IRS & US Treasury are saying no more. Their proposal is that the earliest that they can retire is at age 50, so if someone is right about to complete his 20 years a bit after they implement their decision, he is screwed, even though he was hired under a 20 year retirement system. They will not recognize years of service anymore. Age will be the bar for retirement. IRS's ruling will effect every local/state law enforcement officer, fire fighter and teacher.
    Well, the IRS wants to implement their ruling on January 1, 2011. They originally wanted to implement the ruling on January 1, 2009 but gave pension systems around the country an extension to prepare for the change. So here's where it gets interesting. There is a significant amount of officers (at least 10,000 in NYC) that will be very close to retiring (over 15 years of service) right after that Jan 1, 2011 deadline. Once the deadline passes, they cannot retire until they are age 50 IF THEY WANT THEIR PENSION.

    Page Title : NAPO : National Association of Police Organizations

    Proposed IRS Retirement Rule Change Deferred


    This is not good, many (thousands) will quit overnight.
     
  2. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Why would they quit? It's still 10 times better than the public sector. Police officers aren't like service men & women in that they make very good money. Those in the armed services deserve to retire after 20 years, I don't think police officers and firemen do. It's not like they sacrifice financially like those in the service.

    Althougth they better be careful with the kind of duty they get after age 40. We don't need a large increase in the number of heart attacks for these men & women. If I have to work until I'm 65, I'm and live on my own savings, I'm not going to feel bad for cops and firefighter for having to work until they're 50...c'mon
     
  3. weswelker#83

    weswelker#83 In the Starting Line-Up

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    These thousands of officers would be forced to work about 9 more years to maintain a salary, essentially working for free because they would have been permitted to retire and receive a pension and enter into another profession if the IRS/Treasury don't implement their ruling.

    Someone who is eligible to retire in 2013 and would not be able to because of the 2011 implementation. So to avoid these extra years of work, he would then "vest" - (vested retirement) on Dec 31, 2010 to beat the deadline. That means that he pretty much quits and will not receive pension payments for 2011, 2012, but would begin to receive them in 2013. The alternative is to stay and retire normally in 2013 but the new IRS rule will result in not receiving a pension payment unitl 2022 when the officer is 50 or could work until 2022 and then retire and collect his pension checks.
    The pension is a half of salary plus $12,500 each year. Working 9 extra years means that he would be giving back the City that pension + $12,500 for those 9 years instead of collecting it and engaged in a new employment.

    These are interesting times.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
  4. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Retirement benefits are not taxed this is the reason for this rule change. This is the beginning of the money grub, it will turn into a landslide soon. The government is going to be telling you how to run every aspect of your life to their benefit, and not to yours.

    The NYPD has a 20 year retirement (as does the NYC Sanitation (which pays better, and nobody shoots at you). ON 9/11/2002 every single NYPD Officer that was eligible (or close) retired, because their system is that your retirement is based on your last year of work plus overtime (so after 9/11 they were working 12 on then 12 off, so they all have huge pensions).

    My brother-in-law started with the NYPD when he was 20 (you can enter the academy when your 20, as long as you will be 21 when you graduate), I think that surviving 20 years on the streets of New York is more than enough for him to earn a pention (and no the NYPD is grossly underpaid, they make 30% less than their Long Island counterparts). Take the money, get out as soon as you can. I think what the feds should do is raise the starting age for federal agents from 37 to 42, this way the federal government can benefit from these highly experienced cops.
     
  5. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Spoken like someone that NEVER worked a day in the enforcement :rolleyes:
     
  6. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Nice come-back PiNY...why not "try" commenting to the points I made. I know it's not too tough for police officers in Massachusetts to earn over $100K a year. Take the town of Weymouth where I grew up. Several of them made over $100K last year (and the years before that). Weymouth is not a high risk town as most US towns are not.

    I'll give you that a city cop's job is extremely difficult and stressful, but in today's economy, I don't want to support hundreds of thousands of these guys retirement pensions at age 40 with 20 years of service. If they had a 100% self-supporting retirement fund, I'd be ok with it. But WE fund it 100% AND these guys make good money. They aren't underpaid like men & women in the armed services who typically make crap there entire careers and have no opportunity to stand in a street under construction doing squat for overtime and make $50/hr.:D

    There, is that better?
     
  7. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Like I said, your speaking from a CLUELESS perspective. While your Weymouth cops may make 100k, the overwhelming majority make significantly LESS, and that is a FACT.

    And while you may think that most "stand in a street under construction doing squat for overtime and make $50/hr", most spend their days doing sh!tty work for an ungrateful public that sh!ts on them at every turn. Follow the link about and find out that after getting sh!t on for 10+ years, they MIGHT make half of your 100K.

    Not only is it dangerous (3 PO/COs have died in the line of duty in the US in the last 8 days, but you wouldn't know that, would you?), they also have an awesome amount of responsibility that requires them to have to make snap (LIFE OR DEATH) judgements at the blink of an eye that will be scrutinized ad nauseaum right up the chain for weeks afterward. Every traffic stop makes their azzhole pucker, and the more routine you think a call is the quicker it'll turn to sh!t, without warning.

    It takes an emotional toll, personal and professional, that really beats down their effective ability to perform at the highest standards that are DEMANDED of them. After 20 years, they may NEED to be rotated out, not just WANT to get out. Sure, you hear stories of the cops that make it 35 years, but inevitably, those are the guys that "rolled out of the street, and into a desk" early on.

    To even approach a decent salary, you have to work OODLES of overtime, which comes at the price of being away from your family and into harms way. Come to think of it, the last local cop that got killed in our area (a guy I knew), was working OVERTIME, directing traffic at a concert when he was struck by a careless driver. Care to tell his wife and kid that sitting around collecting "money for nothing" pulling cake duty?

    Go ahead, stick your head in the sand and pretend that law enforcement is just another no sweat job any ole Joe could do for 30-40 years without blinking. It's the typical liberal, elitist position that doesn't recognize the REAL DIFFICULTIES of one of the most difficult jobs one can do in this country. EVERY LE officier I know deals with people like you every day, and manages not to puke all over your shoes. That's enough to convince me to give them a break.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I don't know anything about being a cop but the idea that 50 is too old is crazy especially when it's on the public's dime. I can retire at 56 1/2 with 30 years (I'll have about 34 by then) and I consider that a sweet deal. 40 years old with 20 years ? That's not workable for me, too many people getting paid and sitting at home.
     
  9. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Look at the pensions closely BF. They aren't that good for the "20 & outs", they are like 50%, and if you opt for them, you ain't sitting at home, your out working your "second career". Most work til they have about 24-27 or more in (depends on when they started), because that the level at which they can ACTUALLY RETIRE if they invested carefully (or thought they did).

    Sounds like a sweet deal, but most guys that opt for the 20 & out do so because they are toasted. They just don't want to do it anymore. The are no longer effective if that's the case and it's probably best to let them move to the next phase. They paid their debt. If you notice it's almost always the street guys too. If you're lucky and get off patrol and into a suit, life probably gets better and you'll last longer, but its no guarantee.

    There is a REASON that cops (and Military) are offered 20 & out packages and it's not cause they are lazy and just wanna coast from age 40 on. Really, it may seem that way, but its not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
  10. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Of course in most areas of the US, they don't make $50K. I was referring to MA cops and specifically, eastern MA cops. They don't need to make $100K in Ohio to be making good dough.

    Let me make a suggestion, take a look at the 10 most dangerous jobs in the US before you go acting like being a cop is the soooo tough;

    Listed by Fatalities per 100,000
    1. Timber cutters 117.8
    2. Fishers 71.1
    3. Pilots and navigators 69.8
    4. Structural metal workers 58.2
    5. Drivers-sales workers 37.9
    6. Roofers 37
    7. Electrical power installers 32.5
    8. Farm occupations 28
    9. Construction laborers 27.7
    10. Truck drivers 25

    You think all these guys make huge $$? I guarantee you they are more physically F'd up at the end of their careers than a cop. You think THEY can retire after 20 years? Get a clue.

    You call me a typical lib (which I am not) yet YOU want to subsidize these guys retiring at 40...wake up.:rolleyes:

    If they "toasted" at 20, then give em a desk job for the last 10.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
  11. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    can we honestly say we'll have a good and porductive society and economy when people live to 80-90 and want to retire in their 40's?

    isn't this overburdening the system and almost like a subprime mortgage?

    to have a productive economy people NEED to work.
     
  12. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    Don't forget biggles, as PiNY will remind you, most cops who retire at 40 go on to their second career and keep working.
     
  13. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    You are a lib.............. are you saying you aren't?

    I didn't say it would be on the "10 most dangerous" list either, I just said it's dangerous, and IT IS. You'll notice soilders aren't on that list either, yet you have no issue with them (either do I for the record).

    I also said that even more taxing then the danger element is the stress and day-to-day jugement you HAVE TO GET RIGHT. If you fukc something up, it could cost someones life. You must be prepared to RISK YOURS to SAVE SOMEONE else's EVERYDAY. You don't have that risk as a timber cutter, or a roofer, dangerous and as crappy as those job may be.

    So how do you intend to "guarantee" those guys are more screwed up. YOU CAN'T and your just pulling that out of your arse.
     
  14. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Most do, about 95% of the ones I know (which is into the hundreds). Most can't afford not to.

    When I get to retire, I'll be retiring to another career. My retirement is 25 and out (which is actually pretty common too in smaller Depts or related work) @ 60% (60% percent of crappy pay, is crappier pay).
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
  15. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    this is true, very similar to teachers in mass that get the MTA retirement when they retire and keep on working or go teaching for a private school or in another state.
     
  16. weswelker#83

    weswelker#83 In the Starting Line-Up

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    I mean no disrespect to those police, fire etc who do really good jobs, but what needs to change is a couple of things.

    1) We need to get rid of a bunch of laws that criminalize stupidity that eat up a lot of police time.
    2) We need to (at least in suburbia) stop putting so many police on speeding patrol and set them to responding to what most people consider crime - burglery, assault, etc. The next town where i live built a multi million $$ new facility for police training. Please - is that really necessary ? What have they been doing for the last say 50 years for training, and why does it need to be a Taj Mahal ?
    3) Why should anyone be able to retire and get a pension for 40-50 years at the expense of the taxpayer, especially when you have a lot of useful years ahead of you in some other capacity ?

    No one should be getting a free ride for 40+ years at the expense of the taxpayer. Pay 'em more while they're working and stop with the freebies.



    This is what me think is happening ,we literally can no longer afford to pay pensions like theirs, and the covenants will be re-written to pay less for more years of service. The boomers got theirs and everyone else is screwed. We are broke, and the standard of living that we assumed was normal from 1940-2000 is a thing of the past. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Subsidised prescription drugs, pensions - forget it.

    DISNEYLAND is now closed!
    REALITY is tough!




    "All this stuff you take for granted, the life you know - It's not gonna last."
    --John Connner
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
  17. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    not to mention these jobs are based on alot of nepotism in getting one. that's cronyism.
     
  18. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    lets not forget that times have changed. many use to work on the farm and not finish high school. it was a good thing they went to school more, but those working hours were lost. then the college boom happened, another good thing. but it caused 4 years of lost work hrs for all those individuals.

    it seems like the american dream is more to work less and retire early which is a good thing but to allow these individuals to live they need capital and where will it come from?
     
  19. weswelker#83

    weswelker#83 In the Starting Line-Up

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    I have no problem paying cops more NOW while they are working, but to live on the dole for nearly TWICE as long as you work is not sustainable ,then collect retirement for the estimated 37 years!! (actual tables put average death at 77).
    Bottom line is we can't afford the GM model of pensions anymore of Working 20 years and draw similar payout for another 30. It sucks but that is brutal reality. In Houston, cops used to get a sweet retirement deal based on final years take home. Of course, that gets laden with overtime.Bill White changed that in 2004. Now cops can retire only if 55. (SEE LINK)
    City of Houston eGovernment Center
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2008
  20. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    That's a bunch of BS IMO. Talk about gaming the system.

    This BS about people retiring after 20 years, while we foot the bill, is a travesty. Two of my closest friends work for the MBTA, and they get full retirement after 23 years. WTF is that? No wonder government costs so much, and virtually every state, or federal agency is in the red.
     

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