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Lateral Agility - Interesting Read from Nolan Nawrocki

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by mayoclinic, Apr 7, 2009.

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  1. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This just out from Nolan Nawrocki at PFW:

    NFL Draft - NFL draft preview and analysis from Pro Football Weekly

    Since we've been talking about alternative metrics such as the short shuttle, 10 yard split and 3-cone, I thought this would be of interest. It essentially looks at the difference bewteen the 40 time and the short shuttle as a metric of lateral agility.

    Some of our favorite players don't do particularly well here, while some others - thought of as less "athletic" - do quite well. For example, it suggests that Darius Butler, Jarron Gilbert, Everette Brown and Tyson Jackson are all well below average in agility for their positions. It also suggests that Ron Brace is much more agile than expected.

    I'm not sure what to make of this and whether I believe it. I guess it means that Ron Brace can move side to side better than he can move forwards, but I don't know what that means. Nic Harris has a terrific backpedal but a horrible 40 time. Does his fast backpedal make him any less slow? Not sure.
  2. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Doesn't Cushing have the best lateral ability of any LB prospect?
  3. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You don't consider the SS scores when assessing position fit? How many times have we seen a Safety start moving towards one hash and have to suddenly change direction? If a CB gets turned in or outside by the WR, what potential does he have to change direction and get back into the play? A 4-3 MLB is more likely to be put in a position to change direction for a RB using his cutback lane, than a 3-4 ILB who has a partner guarding against that cutback. A 4-3 one-gap penetrating DT is more likely to need to change direction than a 3-4 two-gap DE who is stacking up the OL and reading the play.

    I consider the 3-cone more important for a WR who will play on the outside, but a Wes Welker playing inside who has two ways to go will be more effective if he can start one way, then stop and reverse direction once the defender is committed. A good 3-cone helps Wes, but his short shuttle had to be killer for him to be so effective.
  4. TriplecHamp

    TriplecHamp Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    Agree, gotta love those China Outs.
  5. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    Note that James Lauranitis measure at .54, led all the ILBs, DEs,and OLBs of any consequence. His production of 9 INTs and 13 PDs is spectacular, and beats many first round CBs! And he has double the ILB sacks of Rey Maualuga.

    He was the Butkus Award winner as the collegiate best LB; and and also an Academic All American. He screams 15 year player, and team captain calling the defenses and adjustments and on the field for all three downs.

    He is still my aim for 23. And I don't give a damn that he is not superb in standing up Guards, merely pretty good. ;) (and Barwin at #34):p
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2009
  6. TealSox

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    Lauranitis is starting to grow on me. Plays like a leader and is all over the field. Of all the linebackers in the draft, I think he left college with less to prove. I mean, there wasn't much he didn't accomplish at the college level and few, if any, red flags.
  7. TriplecHamp

    TriplecHamp Rookie

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    Not an impact player dont want him at #23 #34 #47 #58....I just dont think he can stop the run. IDK im just not a fan at all. Yeah he had great numbers but...I dont think he is a SILB.
  8. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I feel a lot better about Laurinaitis, Cushing, or Maualuga than Barwin, but I freely admit I'm completely biased towards production and experience.
  9. mayoclinic

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    What I don't understand about this metric is that it seems to prefer people who run a slow 40. Since it measures short shuttle minus 40 time, you get a higher number of you run a good short shuttle but a poor 40 time. If you run both well, you are penalized. I don't particularly see why I should favor someone who runs a good short shuttle and a poor 40 over someone who does both well. That's why people like Nic Harris and Ron Brace have relatively inflated scores.

    I can understand the concept that you may have great linear speed but poor lateral mobility. That seems worth trying to tease out. I can also understand that you might have less than ideal linear speed and excellent lateral ability. But at best this seems like a crude tool.
  10. Lockdown06

    Lockdown06 Rookie

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    I agree - if you're way better at one or the other, this statistic will highlight it, but if you're equally terrible OR equally outstanding, you're going to be penalized - for example, Pat White had a poor score - there is no way that guy is not laterally quick, he's just really quick and really fast, so it looks like a bad score cause there's not a significant difference between his times
  11. jagkho

    jagkho Rookie

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    I agree as well. It seems like if you are looking for lateral quickness, why not just look at who has better than average shuttle times. I'm not sure why you need to subtract it from their 40 times.
  12. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Absolutely! A perfect example of the fallacy is how all of the top DTs by his measure are the NT-style widebodies. Ron Brace is annointed Mr. Quickness for his 4.73 shuttle, while Ziggy Hood is "average" at 4.55.

    Frankly, I find the article completely misguided. The differential is supposed to be used to put an individual's 40 time into perspective, it's meaningless to rank players buy differential alone. At the very least, differential MUST be ranked as a function of the raw times.
  13. Box_O_Rocks

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    And that is why I read Nolan Nawrocki for entertainment, he takes a perfectly valid short shuttle and ties it to some offshoot of scientology or voodoo or doodoo or witch-ever. (Just don't tell Nut, he'd be hurt.)
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2009
  14. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Welker, all 5'8 6/8" of him, was not a combine invite. However, NFLDraftscout.com had his pro-day info. His 3 cone was 7.09 and his 20 yard shuttle was 4.01. That is after putting up a 4.65 40 yard dash.

    I think that what makes Welker so dangerous is his instincts because some of the things he does happen so quickly that you know he hasn't thought asbout it.
  15. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Those are the on campus numbers, do we know if he trained with anyone before testing? This is part of what is so interesting when we try to interpret the numbers, some agents get their kids into top programs - look at the one that developed Barwin - others make do with their Strength & Conditioning Coach. Barwin talked about the difference between his Pro Day and his Combine 40, he hadn't trained to hold his stance as long as the Combine wanted and his start was slower. It made a heck of a difference. I'd love to see all the kids start from a classic three-point or two-point stance based on their position, let's see how long it takes to run a 10 yard split then.

    Wes' numbers are respectable, if he didn't go to a speed factory then they're excellent.
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