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Last chance for Cassel verus San Francisco


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Our direction. Considering that we have 1 week off, I would love to see our O blows away SF D. If we don't, i don't know what to say.

I'd love to see that too, and I think we'll see that happen at least once this season (a 15+ point victory), but I'm done trying to predict when it's going to happen. Ask me a week ago which game was most likely going to be a Pats blowout, I would have said week 3 at home against Miami. I'm not predicting anymore this year :p
 
BB is too competitive to let more than one more game go down the drain with poor QB play.
You sure about this?

Cassel's second start was a whole lot better than Brady's second start, and BB didn't cut Brady.
 
So, we have one of the best teams of all time. We will reduce the offense to what Cassel can handle (reduce the number reads etc.), count on the defense and ST's to win games, and hope. In short, we'll make believe that this team is as weak as the 2001 team, and hope that Cassel performs as good as Brady in 2001.

Personally, I think that this a great misuse of talent. And no one is saying ANY veteran is better than Cassel. We don't know who would be best. Our best guess in Garcia, who the vast majority of posters indicated in a recent poll would give us a better chance to be deep in the playoffs tha Cassel.

And BTW, we can spend the next offseason speculating on when Brady will be on the field and when he will be 100%, counting on Gut and O'Connell if Brady isn't ready, and calling ourselves unlucky beacuse we couldn't deal with a situation that was foreseeable for a full year.

Exactly what do I take from a straw poll indicating people want Garcia? Are any of those opinions polled coaches, scouts or GMs in the NFL? Even if it the response is unanimous, it does not make the statement credible. If those polled have actual football experience other than watching NFL football, playing fantasy football or running a Madden NFL franchise, it might add force to your position. Just like politics, expect a serious result shift and numerous mea culpas if Cassel puts points on the board.

So you have no answer to the questions (other than, I am assuming, Garcia is a viable veteran QB despite the fact he wants to be a starter, not a backup, and has not accepted he is a backup QB and would willingly take a pay cut to serve in that capacity. I am also assuming you conclude he is good to go immediately and will take over as starting QB Cassel will infer from Garcia's hiring he is done and incapable of leading this team) and somehow assume my contrary position to yours means we dumb down the offense. I did not say that, nor did I come even close to implying that.

I still believe we can win with this team as is and am not freaking out over a bad loss. Cassel knows the plays, but needs to gain experience and develop as a starter. So would anybody injected into this system after Brady. He may get the Eli Manning treatment during which experienced players like Shockey pushed him around but that can be fixed through positive performance and doing his job. Experience will build confidence, so what you have seen may not be the same as the finished product on the field as the season progresses. That is why fans put a vote of confidence in Belichick's talent assessment and have some faith that his actual NFL experience may afford him a greater insight than armchair quarterbacks who have never experienced NFL practices or game planning.

What I said is Belichick will learn more about Cassel's response to situations, fix what can be fixed and select an offensive scheme that works best with his abilities from the full playbook (not the 30% the veteran Garcia would run for most of the remaining season). The offense could be fully functional circa-2007 and doesn't have to be an offense circa-2001.

The guy has an 87 QB rating, which by most accounts is decent, but all the negative opinions seem to dump fault on him that the team is not getting in the end zone. Why exactly is that? Are the running backs tearing it up right now? No. Is the offensive line giving him sufficient time to throw deep? I saw one opportunity he missed last game. Should Moss have caught that pass up the middle, whether the miss was alligator arms or not seeing the ball? Yes. Have there been drops? Yes.

So clearly Cassel is responsible for this offensive malaise, and the panacea for all the Patriots offensive woes is a different quarterback. Because change is good, even if it's for the sake of change. Because winning 67% of games played is bad (dismiss that statistic based on strength of schedule, but project out the fact that most of the teams on this schedule blow in strength of schedule terms) and we couldn't possibly do worse with a replacement. Because guys like Jeff Garcia are known for leading teams to the promised land (2-4 in the playoffs in his 10th season, but let's credit him with the victories and crappy supporting staff for the losses) and promoting team harmony so we will get the offense on a united front by bringing in outsiders.

So is my Cassel choice based on some theory to let the defense win it? No. Will any QB available save a defensive meltdown like we saw last week? No. Do I expect Cassel and the offense will improve over the season? Yes. Do I expect it will be as proficient as the Brady-led offense last season? No. Will any change other than cloning Brady and implanting 7 years of experience with the offense into memory achieve that result? Not even close.
 
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Please post a list of all Gutierrez and Cassel's NFL starts with their QB ratings. I understand for most here, NFL experience is not worth much.

I'm willing to take the unknown over the known failure. You prefer the failure over the unknown.
 
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Earliest a move will be made is after the sd game. That gives Cassel 4 starts and is a decent amount of playing time to base him on. From there, we may see O'C come in if MC does in fact stink the joint out, but if he plays ok to well, O'C rides the pine until MC is hurt.
 
Some would say you have it backward. It is Gute who has been judged a failure and cut from the patriots, not Garcia. And I do understand the philosophy that no player not in a patriot uni can be any good.

I'm willing to take the unknown over the known failure. You prefer the failure over the unknown.
 
BB is too competitive to let more than one more game go down the drain with poor QB play.
Despite Brady being gone for the season, I am sure BB believes he can make this team competitive.

MC better lead this team to more than 21 points and at least 2 red zone td's versus SF or else he can say hello to the bench.


I know that the right side of the O-line sucks...all the more reason to get someone in there who is more instinctive and can use their legs.


I am willing to bet the D rises to the occasion

I have no illusions about Cassell. If he ascends to the role of competent journeyman backup, it would be a great achievement for him and Belichick. But if the Patriots have stuck with him this long, it is very unlikely (barring another QB injury) that they will bring anyone in from another team. The beginning of this week would have been the time to do it - weak performance by Cassell on Sunday and two weeks for the new guy to at least read the playbook.

As I said in several posts before the season began, Belichick had a blind spot in the assessing the importance of backup quarterback. Matt Cassell third string behind Flutie or Vinnie, fine. Matt Cassell as the starting quarterback if Brady goes down, not so fine.

Bringing in another team's quarterback at this time would likely fail. There is just too much to pick up and little time to do it. When backup quarterbacks have succeeded in taking their team into the playoffs (Garcia with Philly in 2006, and Collins with the Redskins in 2007) they were with those teams in the spring and the preseason. Sadly, the opportunity for getting an experienced quality backup like Todd Collins disappeared about 5 months ago.
 
I have no illusions about Cassell. If he ascends to the role of competent journeyman backup, it would be a great achievement for him and Belichick. But if the Patriots have stuck with him this long, it is very unlikely (barring another QB injury) that they will bring anyone in from another team. The beginning of this week would have been the time to do it - weak performance by Cassell on Sunday and two weeks for the new guy to at least read the playbook.

As I said in several posts before the season began, Belichick had a blind spot in the assessing the importance of backup quarterback. Matt Cassell third string behind Flutie or Vinnie, fine. Matt Cassell as the starting quarterback if Brady goes down, not so fine.

Bringing in another team's quarterback at this time would likely fail. There is just too much to pick up and little time to do it. When backup quarterbacks have succeeded in taking their team into the playoffs (Garcia with Philly in 2006, and Collins with the Redskins in 2007) they were with those teams in the spring and the preseason. Sadly, the opportunity for getting an experienced quality backup like Todd Collins disappeared about 5 months ago.


Yet Cassel beat them both out for the backup spot...

I am glad you think your assessment of Cassel is worth more than BB's assessment. I mean you definitely have seen at least 1% as much as BB has of Cassel, clearly you know better.
 
I happened to be sitting next to Jonathan, Myra and Robert Kraft yesterday @ Davio's between 6-7:30pm they were also sitting with Nick Caserio, Dir of Player Personnel. They placed us in the corner on the right because my wife and I also had our 5 mth old son w/us and needed some extra room for his stroller. It looked like the Kraft family was spending some time with him letting him know how much they appreciate everything he does, they handed him an envelope with his bonus during the dinner as well and Jonathan told him that he is excellent. They talked about how Patriot Place was coming along wonderfully and how happy they were about that and some other small talk about the $700 bil bailout and how important it is that it passes this week. Cassel also came up and Jonathan said he needs to show "marked" improvement in the San Fran game and Cesario said he feels he SHOULD coming off the bye week after having some time to get used to the idea that he is the man at QB.
 
Re: Last chance for Cassell verus San Francisco

If this team does not sign a vet at QB within the next 7 days then you can likely expect the 3 musketeers we have on the QB depth chart to be the guys to finish the season although it may be Gutz or O'Connell to start if Cassel continues to suck

- If there are any new additions it will probably be no later than next week sometime,I don't see it happening as bringing in another QB could be harmful to the makeup of the team even if it means potentially throwing the season down the tubes and suffering till a REAL QB comes back in 2009.

The time to bring a VET QB in....is NOW........they could already be learning the offense....and....if Cassel struggles out West....which I imagine he will.......They could come in......None of the "3 Musketeers" as you call them.....can lead this team to a winning season.....OR ......lead the offense in a high scoring attack.........NONE of them.......Gutz would be better than Cassel however......not sure what they are thinking about with Okee.....He should be #3..........IF they do not bring in a vet......get ready for next year.....Just being PRAGMATIC here.......we need a vet to get the most out of this offense...and mentally CHARGE up our defense.....right now....seems like the team has no confidence in Cassel....
 
Yet Cassel beat them both out for the backup spot...

I am glad you think your assessment of Cassel is worth more than BB's assessment. I mean you definitely have seen at least 1% as much as BB has of Cassel, clearly you know better.

Response number 16,748 from Patriot fans who think that (a) either Bill Belichick is infallible (is he the pope?), or (b) think that more information about something always leads to the right decision (Bush certainly had access to more data on Iraq then the average citizen), or (c) that forums like this only exist for fans to heap praise on the team and coach. I guess several years ago when dozens of posters said of Monty Beisel that he sucked and yet Belichick brought him back after Beisel's first season to the Pats training camp, that Bill's assessment was superior. Oh wait, Bill changed his mind by the end of training camp and cut Beisel.
 
Response number 16,748 from Patriot fans who think that (a) either Bill Belichick is infallible (is he the pope?), or (b) think that more information about something always leads to the right decision (Bush certainly had access to more data on Iraq then the average citizen), or (c) that forums like this only exist for fans to heap praise on the team and coach. I guess several years ago when dozens of posters said of Monty Beisel that he sucked and yet Belichick brought him back after Beisel's first season to the Pats training camp, that Bill's assessment was superior. Oh wait, Bill changed his mind by the end of training camp and cut Beisel.


a) No, but I understand he has much more knowledge, experience, ability and gets to see the players in practice every day as well as camps, not just for a few hours a week during the season. We cannot judge BB's decisions unless we have all the evidence.

b) No one ever said more knowledge leads to the right decision, but more knowledge gives better ability to assess situations. You can GUESS right with limited information but it doesn't make your observation astute or intelligent. If you attempt to judge something outright and make outlandish statements based on extremely limited knowledge and evidence, the outcome is meaningless, you are still foolish.

c) BB bringing Beisel to camp did not mean BB thought he definitely should make the 53. What the hell does it hurt bringing a guy who's been in the system to camp and see if he's progressed? Many people would have said Vrabel was bad when we first got him. Limited information is just a shot in the dark. A blind squirrel, a broken clock, etc...
 
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Re: Last chance for Cassell verus San Francisco

The time to bring a VET QB in....is NOW........they could already be learning the offense....and....if Cassel struggles out West....which I imagine he will.......They could come in......None of the "3 Musketeers" as you call them.....can lead this team to a winning season.....OR ......lead the offense in a high scoring attack.........NONE of them.......Gutz would be better than Cassel however......not sure what they are thinking about with Okee.....He should be #3..........IF they do not bring in a vet......get ready for next year.....Just being PRAGMATIC here.......we need a vet to get the most out of this offense...and mentally CHARGE up our defense.....right now....seems like the team has no confidence in Cassel....



I don't....know.....what I'm talking about.....I just want.....to make outlandish......statements.......because......Cassel sucked in.......preseason.....so I'm smarter.........than BB.......and know he can't put up a better.......QB rating than those amazing vets......that are on the.....market.......and I have no one to answer.......to...........so trading #2's and #1's for whoever.......I.......want.........is..........the best decision......ever......

Please tell me your space bar is broken and your '.' button is randomly stuck.
 
I happened to be sitting next to Jonathan, Myra and Robert Kraft yesterday @ Davio's between 6-7:30pm they were also sitting with Nick Caserio, Dir of Player Personnel. They placed us in the corner on the right because my wife and I also had our 5 mth old son w/us and needed some extra room for his stroller. It looked like the Kraft family was spending some time with him letting him know how much they appreciate everything he does, they handed him an envelope with his bonus during the dinner as well and Jonathan told him that he is excellent. They talked about how Patriot Place was coming along wonderfully and how happy they were about that and some other small talk about the $700 bil bailout and how important it is that it passes this week. Cassel also came up and Jonathan said he needs to show "marked" improvement in the San Fran game and Cesario said he feels he SHOULD coming off the bye week after having some time to get used to the idea that he is the man at QB.


Did everyone miss this post or am I losing it?
 
Did everyone miss this post or am I losing it?

I missed it until you showed it to me :D

I don't know what to make of it. It assumes "much".

As far as whats going to happen. Here's my best guess.

Its Cassel or O'Connell.

One way or the other we will know by years end if we have a back up QB for Brady next year.

If so great. If not we will get one.
 
Did everyone miss this post or am I losing it?

No, it's just that the Caserio comment reflects what the football ops people are thinking (he will get beter) while Jonathan is entitled to his opinion, like any of us... That's the way it works here, which is also why it has worked.

The Krafts were fans first, but Robert learned to delegate and trust when he snagged Bill.
 
No, it's just that the Caserio comment reflects what the football ops people are thinking (he will get beter) while Jonathan is entitled to his opinion, like any of us... That's the way it works here, which is also why it has worked.

The Krafts were fans first, but Robert learned to delegate and trust when he snagged Bill.
That's a good way of looking at it. I just think we're going to see further similarities to 2001 as we progress, but being ahead 2 W's as we go.

If anyone can turn a QB they thought was a solid low round pick into an elite player, I'm gonna say it's these guys.

I really think Cassel is gonna be a nightmare for the faint of heart through the next 3-4 games by being brilliant with a nice side of boneheaded. It was probably good for him to get that pick out of the way. @ SF is gonna be a great game and if we beat the bolts offensively it's gonna be tough for people to keep their hate on.

Back to the topic title, Cassel has longer than one game to prove himself, but if the OL takes their job a little more seriously, we'll see this offense start zipping down the field.
 
a) No, but I understand he has much more knowledge, experience, ability and gets to see the players in practice every day as well as camps, not just for a few hours a week during the season. We cannot judge BB's decisions unless we have all the evidence.

b) No one ever said more knowledge leads to the right decision, but more knowledge gives better ability to assess situations. You can GUESS right with limited information but it doesn't make your observation astute or intelligent. If you attempt to judge something outright and make outlandish statements based on extremely limited knowledge and evidence, the outcome is meaningless, you are still foolish.

c) BB bringing Beisel to camp did not mean BB thought he definitely should make the 53. What the hell does it hurt bringing a guy who's been in the system to camp and see if he's progressed? Many people would have said Vrabel was bad when we first got him. Limited information is just a shot in the dark. A blind squirrel, a broken clock, etc...

What constitutes "all the evidence?" Since no fan of the Patriots can ever have "all the evidence" you are essentially saying that no fan can judge Belichick's decisions, even though you admit that he is not infallible. Which takes me to my original point c, which is: forums such as these would be damn boring and would have far fewer participants if everyone was like you and just assumed that people in positions of authority - football coaches, principals, hedge fund managers, and presidents were always right because they are presumed to have a better ability to assess a situation. ---And by the way, my original post made no outlandish claim. I merely said that the Patriots were unlikely to bring in a replacement, that if they did he would likely fail, and that the time to get a veteran backup like Todd Collins was in the spring. When I sent an e-mail to Reiss a month or two ago, he agreed that Collins would have been a smart choice, but then again he doesn't have "all the evidence."
 
What constitutes "all the evidence?" Since no fan of the Patriots can ever have "all the evidence" you are essentially saying that no fan can judge Belichick's decisions, even though you admit that he is not infallible. Which takes me to my original point c, which is: forums such as these would be damn boring and would have far fewer participants if everyone was like you and just assumed that people in positions of authority - football coaches, principals, hedge fund managers, and presidents were always right because they are presumed to have a better ability to assess a situation. ---And by the way, my original post made no outlandish claim. I merely said that the Patriots were unlikely to bring in a replacement, that if they did he would likely fail, and that the time to get a veteran backup like Todd Collins was in the spring. When I sent an e-mail to Reiss a month or two ago, he agreed that Collins would have been a smart choice, but then again he doesn't have "all the evidence."

Mike's a good reporter... His personal opinions are another whole matter.

That said, what led you to believe Collins would be a fit here? He spent most of his career as a backup in Al Saunders version of the Air Coryall offense. That is why he made sense for the Redskins - Al was their OC trying to install his system on a team with an inexperienced 2nd round draft QB.

Todd has a CAREER 76% completion rate. He completes less than 60% of his passes and in the past threw more picks than tds. He's 36 years old and has thrown exactly 6 TD passes since 1997. I'm guessing what intrigued you was that 5 of them came in the last 4 games of last season...

BTW Collins was not available in the spring since he re-signed with the Redskins before the start of FA... Considering his 2TD/2INT performance in their first round playoff loss, his 3 year $9M contract was a bit of a stretch...
 
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