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KSM and 4 others to face trials in NYC Civilian Courts.

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patriot_in_NY, Nov 13, 2009.

  1. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    What could go wrong? :rolleyes:

    I can't believe this hasn't been posted yet.

    Looks like we're headed back to the "Law Enforcement" model for terrorism like we did in the 1990's. It worked so well back then, right?

    Good luck to "the One" should KSM get off on a technicality. I imagine the collective anger at that will be fairly high.
  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You mean the constitutional model???
  3. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    The attacks on Sept. 11 was an act of war, committed by a transnational terrorist group aligned with, and protected by the Taliban, which was a regime that was recognized as a government by three nations who are sitting members of the UN.

    KSM and co. should not get the full protection of American criminal system.

    Course, as they are outside the command and structure of a uniformed military, they shouldn't be afford the full protection of the laws of war either. This is a sui generis situation that nobody could have planned for, but there certainly is a need to deal with these type of transnational terrorists. Certainly not within the criminal court system, and probably a system much closer to the military one. The civilian courts and law enforcement agencies are not equipped to handle the complexities of the international scope of these events.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
  4. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I was going to post it this morning but I knew what the reaction would be, when I post this stuff they blame me for putting it in the newspaper, the left wing always goes after the messenger (Fox News)
  5. reflexblue

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    To try these people in a military court validates them, it raises they're stature as more than just religious fanatics.

    By trying them in a civilian court in the city they are most famous for attacking sends a message that we are not afraid.

    This whole absurd idea that we can't allow terrorists into this country to be triad, or imprisioned just gives them what they were try to achieve in the first place, that they can scare and manipulate us.
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You said the word "religious" thats racist unless you mean "christian"
  7. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    Translation: I got nothing :confused2:

    Classic....... I forgot more then you'll ever know, but I don't have the time or energy...... Whatever then.

    I'd love to have SOMEONE ELSE that has a little more energy to go into how this decision to try KSM in the civilian courts is good for the country. How the Law Enforcement model (which this move represents) used from 1992-2001, is superior to the military/CIA based one we used from 2001-now.

    Should be an interesting discussion should anyone with the time or inclination choose to discuss it.
  8. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    That doesn't make sense. First, bringing them here for trail is a HUGE security risk. I don't think it has anything to do with "making some kind of political statement". How is it that KSM, who masterminded what amounts to an act of war against this country, becomes eligible for our civil protections afforded in our court system. War criminals need to be tried in a military setting. This is not just some guy that killed a bunch of people. The Pentagon was attacked, which makes this an act of war, not a crime.

    Which of course is besides the main point of switching back to the Law Enforcement model from a military model.

    **ADDED**

    Keep in mind, we're not totally going that way as it appears (from the article) that Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri (USS Cole bomber) is going to be tried under a military commission. Not sure what the purpose of the "hybrid" approach is, beyond the speculative "better case" approach. This inconsistency is worse then all one, or the other IMO.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
  9. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    I don't really agree with this decision, IMO you try these guys in a military court, and if there is sufficient evidence presented you execute them. Done and done. Why move guys captured on foreign soil to the US court system? There may be a good legal justification for it, but I do not know what it is. I mean, what do the feds plan to do if he's found innocent on a technicality, release him? Does anyone think that would actually happen? No way do they let this guy free again while he breathes, which to me makes this whole trial process a sham. And if its not a sham and they'd actually consider setting him free, well, that's a possibility I just can't even consider.
  10. DarrylS

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    A quick and dirty look of the news indicates that the details have not yet been disclosed, so may want to wait for what Holder has to say...
  11. Real World

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    I'm going to wait until more details are available, but on the surface, these animals should not be tried in a civilian court.
  12. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    God Jesus, we can only hope and pray that nobody offends them.
  13. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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  14. Wolfpack

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    I think they should just let the guy go free. They should announce the specific time and place, say 2 in the morning in Central Park, and let the good citizens of New York do what they feel is best.
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think to role model our system of jurisprudence is important to getting the facts out to the world and establishing the barbarism of the enemy. If the trial took place in a military court, it would have less legitimacy in the eys of the world, and that's important to our ability to discredit our enemies claims about us.

    Obviously, the government feels it has a strong case. As Ms.Patsfans link says,

    "If the government has sufficient admissible evidence to prevail in federal court, then the case goes to a federal court. If the evidence admissible in federal court is insufficient to obtain a conviction, then the detainee goes to a military commission. If there is insufficient evidence for either a commission or a court, then the detainee potentially will go to a National Security Court, or must challenge his detention via habeas [corpus] and establish that he is, in fact, being held illegally."

    There will be vastly greater transparency in this type of trial than a military trial, and I think that's good for the families of victims, for our foreign policy, and for the American public in that bogus conspiracy theories, etc. will probably be debunked. In the highly unlikely event, a jury finds him innocent, I feel certain that the government, through the Patriot Act or Homeland Security Act, will have recourse.
  16. Wolfpack

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    I know you think you know what's better for the families of victims than they themselves do, but let me assure you that from everything I am hearing they most certainly do not share your sentiment.

    I do agree with one thing you say. If a jury found him not guilty (there's no such thing as being found innocent) then the government wouldn't exactly just let him walk away a free man like O.J. They would just bring him back to holding and come up with something else.

    These men will never breathe free air again.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
  17. patsfan13

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    Patters was doing what he should for the forum.



    This idea of trying these prisoners as mere criminals is insane. They are enemy combatants not American citizens accused of theft or something. This is the sort of politically correct deadly nonsense the government specializes in. This is the sort of 'tolerance' that led to the Ft Hood massacre. We don't want to deal with the issue that there is a segment of Islamic groups that is at war with the Western world and wants to impose Sharia law worldwide. MAny want to pretend this is not real. It puts all of us in mortal danger.
  18. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    For the sense of civility and to avoid the rush to judgement... here is the press release... not sure if I agree or not... it has taken 8 years prior to this, and nothing was done...

    POLITICO 44: Dealing with Cole, 9/11 suspects - POLITICO.com

  19. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    IF he was doing what he should have been, don't you think State crossed the line...??? Or do you have your rightie blinders on...

    Your intolerance comments and Ft. Hood, have no bearing on this... and make no sense..
  20. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    Isn't fearmongering fun? Unfortunately what puts us in mortal danger from people like this is economic empire and its attendant necessary oppression. You know, the thing that got us into this mess in the first place?

    Oooooh, mortal danger. Shivers.
  21. DarrylS

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    Perhaps indecision for 8 years was a better alternative, kind of like peek a boo... if no one sees it, no one cares...
  22. reflexblue

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    These people are not part of an established army representing a country as was the case with the Nazi's in WW11. So why should they have the honor of being tried like they are.

    The terrorists behind the 1993 WTC attack Ramzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal Ayyad, Abdul Rahman Yasin and Ahmad Ajaj. were tried in Federal court, i don't remember any stink about it.

    If WE want to be able to tell the world what to do or how to act we have to set an example.
  23. reflexblue

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    I love this fear mongering, i know a ninety five year old women, my wifes aunt a surviver of Nazi Germany, (who lives in Manhatten) that has more nerve than the terrified posters here.

    I said to her a few years are you ever worried about a terrorist attack. She said "I'm not going to let them scare me, if i did that they will have won"
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
  24. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    Um, whose military do these guys belong to that justifies them being considered fit for military courts? They're Timothy McVeighs with hats and beards.

    Also John Walker Lindh was indicted by a federal grand jury - he did not face any military court. How is this any different? (Answer: except for scope and his citizenship, it is not.) How are we any less safe as a result of his case being handled by the federal court system? (Answer: we are not.)
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
  25. patsfan13

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    13 dead and 30+ wounded in a terrorist attack isn't fear mongering it is reality. Then there are the plots that were thwarted in the last couple of months or did you forget or even know?
  26. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    I'm dying to do a search but I'm at work and moderately busy and just don't have time to do it justice. Does anyone know what sort of court other, more recent terrorists, have been tried in? Such as the uni-bomber, McVeigh, etc. I know that some high level terrorist was recently tried here in Federal Court in Alexandria, Va. - he, too, was part of tie 9/11 attack.

    If no one knows I'll try to check it out when I get home but if someone's got that information it would be interesting, to say nothing of possibly informative. As it is I tend to agree with those who are saying that since these people are not part of any recognized army and the attack took place on civilian territory during peace time and targeted mainly civilians (and the Pentagon is staffed mainly by civilian and civilian contractors regardless of it's name and location,) that they should not be tried in a military court - the majority of their mayhen took place in New York, New Yorkers suffered the most from their actions what better place to find a jury in?

    I know these two off the top of my head - both accused of being terrorists - heard in federal courts.

    On July 13 in Alexandria, Va., Ali al-Timimi, an oncologist and U.S.-born Islamic scholar from Falls Church, was sentenced to jail for life plus 70 years without possibility of parole for having solicited others to levy war against the United States and for inducing others to use firearms in violation of federal law. The firearms conviction required a mandatory life sentence without possibility of parole.

    Islam Put on Trial in Terrorism Cases, U.S. Muslims Say - NAM

    and Jose Padilla was also tried in a federal civilian court.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_Padilla_(prisoner)

    It could be because they were US citizens, maybe, I don't know if that makes a difference or not.

    Or if it should.

    edited to add: Ok - citizenship doesn't matter. Al-Qaeda conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui will be spending the rest of his life in a maximum security prison for his role in the Sept. 11 attacks after a federal jury rejected the government's four-year quest to secure his execution for the deadliest terrorist strike on U.S. soil. He's a french citizen.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
  27. Harry Boy

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    I don't worry about them attacking either what I worry about is this stupid politically correct country not doing what they have to do to prevent it.
  28. apple strudel

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    If I recall, the shooter is responsible for his actions, and not tolerance. Who taught tolerance to shoot a gun, anyway?
  29. ljuneau

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    Let's face reality here, folks. Obama's decision (via Eric Holder) is not about bringing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to justice, rather it's to try members of the Bush administration and the CIA for using waterboarding to extract valuable intelligence. (I hope this thread doesn't turn into whether waterboarding is torture and should have or should not have been used.)

    Waterboarding and the torture debate will be brought up in this trial, no doubt about it. What do the courts do about top-secret intel that is relevant to this trial?

    Just as the OJ trial turned into a debate about police racism, this is going to turn into a commensurate circus about CIA and Bush administration use of "torture".

    Obama's objective is not justice for KSM, that's already a given, rather it's his personal vendetta against the former administration.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
  30. DarrylS

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    That is fearmongering, and shows a complete lack of intelligence unless you have been briefed by the FBI and other investigating agencies...

    The only thing I can figure out so far, as the bloated superagency Homeland Security was asleep at the wheel on this one... why didn't someone connect the dots and do not say Political Correctness...

    Someday have some fun google how much violence there is around our military bases, both self inflicted and on others.. the body counts are getting up there...

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