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Kraft vs Belichick...Does Bob have the cajones?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by borg, Nov 1, 2011.

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  1. borg

    borg Rookie

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    Lets get the genuflection out of the way so the fanboys don't bust an artery. BB is the best coach. Kraft is the best owner. Kraft loves BB. Kraft lets BB run the football operations. Together, they have won a ton of games and are the model of the NFL....blah blah blah.

    OK?

    Good.

    Now that that is out of the way, lets get serious here. The Patriots have a player evaluation problem (defense). The Patriots have a developmental problem (CBs that regress). The Patriots continue to ignore/fail in developing a pass rush. The Patriots defensive philosophy of bending while waiting for the opposing QB to make a mistake does not work against very good QBs. Can any of this be argued?

    So what does Bob Kraft do about this? His head coach has assumed direct responsibility for all things defense...and the defensive weaknesses that are displayed year in/year out continue to hamper the goal of defeating playoff teams at year end. You know Bob Kraft is very conscious about both the perceptions and realities of his team, and I'm sure he is more than just worried about the defensive roster and scheme. The defense is his team's achilles heal.

    Now we all know how much Bob Kraft loves to publicly state his business philosophy.....hire good managers, and hold them accountable. Shouldn't BB be held accountable for his defensive creation?

    Suppose we are not talking about the Patriots, perennial winner. Instead we are examining Team X. Team X has an explosive offense, but their defense has league bottoms in pass defense, time of possession, 3rd down conversions. Team X has also spent multiple premium draft picks on defensive players that continue to regress and underperform, often being cut from the roster. Wouldn't most owners make management and coaching changes to correct these deficiencies?

    Bob Kraft is in a delicate position. His Hall of Fame coach appears to have some holes in his swing....which may continue to hold his team back. Bob can't fire the D coordinator. He can't fire the player evaluator. But how hard does Bob push? Push too hard and BB may say this was never our arrangement...see ya. Don't push at all and the same mistakes may repeat over and over.

    The NFL documentary of BB, "Football Life", showed what I felt was a peculiar relationship between the BB and Kraft. Kraft appeared to deflect to BB....and Belichick displayed the comfort level of being in a dentist chair when Kraft was in the room or on the field next to him. Who knows...maybe the cameras made everyone act goofy. But the clear impression was...this is BB's show and the Kraft involvement was limited to contract issues.

    One last point to consider....Jonathan Kraft. He's the future and he has a voice now. He's seems emotional, and emotional people tend to react quickly.

    Back to the lead in question...Does Robert Kraft have the resolve to intervene in some manner regarding football operations?
  2. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, because (A) he has veto power over trades (and, I think, all contracts), and (B) he has insisted in the past on sitting down and talking with some players before he agreed to bring them in.

    In any case . . . I don't think they're going to be confrontational about it, but I do think the Krafts will push for BB to give some of his duties to others.
  3. groundgame

    groundgame Rookie

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    Answer is No. After the end of Bill Parcells era which ended in misery, Robert Kraft to give Belichick all the resources to be sucessfull, but does not snoop in on the shopping list.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
  4. Darolyn72

    Darolyn72 Banned

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    He better because at most they have 2 years of a great Tom Brady left. Starting in 2013, since Belichick has stocked the cupboard with nothing its going to be a return to the Pete Carroll years. Its too bad Bill didn't walk away in the mid-decade like a lot of great coaches do. He's Don Shula, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, hey even Parcells at the end with Dallas.
  5. RobAllan

    RobAllan Rookie

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    I know we've gotten used to measuring success with championships, but I think realistically:
    1. A successful football team is one that makes the playoffs
    2. This team has only missed them like once in a decade
    3. As long as they do #1 with relative consistancy the organization should be healthy from a profitability standpoint as well as from a fan interest standpoint, which would be the only 2 goals of a football team as a corporation

    Bottom line: I think the Patriots are a healthy, profitable team. They could probably be better, but I'm not sure that from an ownership perspective that much needs to change.

    Maybe it does, but I just don't see it from ownership POV. Also, we are definitely still in it for this season at this point.
  6. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    this is silly.......

    how full is the stadium? what's the waiting line for season tickets?

    from a business standpoint, there is no need to change anything.......

    from a sports fans standpoint, the team is 5-2 and has suffered uglier defeats in the last 10 years......

    people really need to step away from the ledge
  7. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    Is someone suggesting Kraft take over personnel and contracts? Yeah, that'll work.:rolleyes:

    Yeah, he's 5-2 with ten consecutive winning seasons and a better record than any coach/GM you could compare him to.

    People are unbelievable. It's one game in the middle of the season
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
  8. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sick and tired of all of this hysteria, BB is still the best.. he has swung and missed a few times, but all have...

    New Orleans pooped the bed last Sunday, San Diego, arguably a team with the best talent, has lost 3 in a row..

    This is the NFL and the NFL wants parity, and is getting it. on any given Sunday.
  9. DefenseRules

    DefenseRules Rookie

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    Miami Dolphin fans must be laughing at us. Go ask them how their head coach is working out for them.
  10. BSR

    BSR Rookie

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    The better question to ask is do the fans have the resolve to jump of the bandwagon?

    Please say yes...please say yes.
  11. Pat_the_Patriot

    Pat_the_Patriot Rookie

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    100% agree... Sit through the real lean years and then tell me that you want to question BB or Mr. Kraft.

    The Pats are 5-2. We are tied for first in the AFC East and still control our own destiny in tie-breakers

    Everyone needs to calm down and step away from the ledge. Everything is okay... but if you don't like the team PLEASE jump off the bandwagon. There are 31 other teams to go route for... do it!
  12. Leave No Doubt

    Leave No Doubt PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    :rocker:Truth.
  13. vyrago

    vyrago Rookie

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    This board is unbelievable. I can barely stand to read it when we win a close game; a loss makes it a place I know I don't want to be because of all the silly whiners who think they're better coaches than BB. Why doesn't Brady's explanation carry any weight? It was execution, not scheme, not plan, it was butt-ugly execution.
  14. Shelterdog

    Shelterdog Rookie

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    This is idiotic.

    Of course he has the cajones. Kraft has shown this again and again. He had the guts to pull Tuna's personnel authority. He had the guts to replace Tuna with a not particularly popular failed head coach in PC, and then after he fired PC he had the guts to give an unpopular failed head coach and defensive coordinator (Belichick) complete control.
  15. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    That's your problem right there
  16. Mountain_Commando

    Mountain_Commando Rookie

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    Certified homer here. But I think the point that the OP is trying to make is NOT that BB isn't great and has been consistently great. It's that he could be even better (and by extension, make the team better) if he would address the gripes on defense which have been plaguing this team for years now.

    And to that, I would say...far be it from us to question BB's method's. Hindshight is always 20/20 but c'mon we all know that he's tried hard to improve this defence. Heck just days before this season started, we were stacked with the additions of AH, Carter, Ellis, Anderson, return of Bodden etc. So the pass rush and run defense, though not stellar, have definitely been improving every game. Who could have predicted Bodden and McCourty's drop in performances? The Sanders and Merriweather cuts baffle me like everyone else, but surely BB saw things that we have no clue about. And as for defensive drafting over the past few years, draft is more crapshoot than a science...and even so BB has consistently drafted at least one pro bowler/stud since and including Wilfork.

    So it would be wrong to say that BB is corrupted due to power to the point of irrational stubborness. BB isn't perfect, no one is, and to expect that of him or anyone is unfair. With that said, this defense has massive woes. But the season is young, we have a fair amount of talented players, and given time to gel, they can well improve to the level of winning playoff games and more.
  17. PatsChamp88

    PatsChamp88 Rookie

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  18. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The correct question should be does he lack the intelligence.
  19. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    lets say for a moment that BB is not great and that BB may need to be replaced.

    who is a good candidate to replace as coach and who else as a player personnel guy?

    I mean I literally can not stand BB's press conferences and I don't think he's much of a person, but I don't believe there are any football minds out there that can do any better.......not unemployed ones anyway.

    tell you one thing.....it'll be easy for him to clean house next offseason......

    I just think he needs to upgrade the coaching staff......that would be the right move......
  20. borg

    borg Rookie

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    Execution?.....please. Did Welker forget how to execute? Having DBs play 8 yds off their WRs was an execution problem? A tougher team beat up on a finesse team, just like Jets playoffs, Raven playoffs, Giants playoffs. Did BB go for the onside kick despite have three TOs and the 2 minute warning because he had more faith in his kicker than his do nothing D? The D roster is horrendous....JAGS, Washouts, and a couple of homegrowns.

    And how about those 5 wins. SD, Oakland, Jets, Dallas....all sliding to mediocrity....not as impressive as it once looked.And the Patriots O has also come back to earth while all the other NFL teams have started playing better organized football which wasn't happenening after the lockout. In other worlds, teams are now playing up to their capabilities and down to their deficiencies. The 30+ point Patriot offense is no longer, but the defense remains inept. That is a problem.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
  21. Shelterdog

    Shelterdog Rookie

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    You essentially have to pick either your coach (say Urban Meyer: I don't think you upgrade on Belichick with a Gruden or Cowher-you have to think a little outside of the box) or your personnel guy (some assistant GM somewhere like DeCosta in Baltimore) and then let them heavily shape who else you're putting in place.
  22. Rob0729

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    First, Kraft didn't become a billionaire for not having cajones. In fact, Eddie Andleman always complained that Kraft was a ruthless businessman. Granted Andleman was on the wrong side of business dealing with him for the Foxboro race track.

    Second, I don't know if Kraft needs to do anything. These anti-Belichick rants come out after a loss, but I think fans are being way too spoiled and unobjective. Yes, Belichick has made blunders, but so has every coach and GM in this league. I think too many Pats fans think Super Bowls are some kind of birthright. Yes, Belichick needs to do a better job in several areas, but it isn't the disaster that people make it out to be after this loss.
  23. SoonerPatriot

    SoonerPatriot Rookie

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    This could also apply to you. :rocker:
  24. borg

    borg Rookie

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    Another question:

    What happened between draft day and today? Belichick drafted for depth in 2011, adding an extra T (Light insurance), an extra DB (Bodden/McCourty seen as starters) added backup RBs and a 3rd QB. BB treated this draft as a depth builder for a roster that appeared intact going into the lockout.

    Fast forward to today.

    7 DBs on the 2010 roster (6 of 7 were cut) are no longer Patriots

    Sanders
    Page
    Meriweather

    Bodden
    Butler
    Wheatley
    Wilhite

    BB drafts 1 DB....months later jettisons 6 DBs (Page contract was up I believe). What happened that BB went from a high comfort level in his secondary to an almost complete removal? How did it get so bad that BB would rather use practice squad players and crappy team castoffs? Could they all have regressed at the same time? Or was their an epidemic of bad attitudes?
  25. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    First, Solder was not drafted as insurance for Light. Light wasn't even on the roster until training camp. Light was insurance for Solder and if he wasn't ready to start right away at LT, not the other way around.

    Second, what happened was the lockout. Belichick had no idea what kind of shape any of his players were in and whether they were dedicated to preparing for the season. Typically by draft day coaches and GMs have a good idea of what players are committed to the offseason and which ones aren't. He also would have known how guys like Bodden were recovering from their injury. The lockout screwed up a lot of player evaluation. Hence why there is so much bad football this year.

    I think if there wasn't a lockout, Belichick might have gotten some of the players he let go into shape to work out for the season. He might have also been more active in free agency to replace these players. The free agency was so condensed and crazy this year, you either had to bowl many of the better free agents over or they went back to their own team with one year deals. The Pats experienced that with Goldson who decided to take an one year deal with his old team rather than a better deal with the Pats.
  26. AndyJohnson

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    Right, because it would be intelligent to fire Bill Bleichick, wouldn't it?
  27. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Maybe Bobby Grier is still out there to take over the personnel decisions. :rolleyes:

    Now that I have that out of my system. I think some fans need to do some reading. Not Borges or Felger, but the books that are out there that describe the scouting system that the Patriots have in place for the draft and FA's.

    BB just doesn't pull these guys out of his butt, although it seems that way to many. Now maybe the scouts have to change or the grading system needs to change, I don't know. After every season BB does evaluations of the coaches and the scouts before he even gets to players.

    But there are many people who have input on players to be drafted, retained, and to be sought in FA. I'm sure Bob Kraft is kept posted on all of this and also has his opinions known.
  28. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually it doesnt because I do not lack the intelligence that would result in firing Bill Belichick.
  29. borg

    borg Rookie

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    1)When all 3 Ts are healthy, Light will be the starting LT, not the insurance

    2)The BB system...aka...the Patriot Way...only take players that love football and put football ahead of everything else. Are you saying these players showed up out of shape? This has never been reported, and these players played preseason games. The out of shape arguement is bogus. Funny how the JAGs picked up from other rosters were in shape but not the Patriot 6?? You are making excuses.

    3)The "Big Bucks for Free Agents" arguement is completely false also. Vets were available for weeks without offers. GMs opted to keep rosters intact because of so little lack time. Little money was thrown around
  30. Shelterdog

    Shelterdog Rookie

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    1.) Even if he doesn't displace Vollmer/Light, Solder's going to get to start a lot of games in future years. You're not just drafting a guy for 2011.

    2.) It certainly was reported that Sanders, Wilhite and BMW were out of shape. Injuries were a problem for Wilhite and Sanders that might have contributed to the conditioning problems.
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