Koppen breaking down the O-line play

[MassPats38]

I admit, I'm deflated after Sunday, Tip. Maybe just the blahs, I don't know but that game, the flatness, the going through the motions, the lack of any fire from this offense was very very disappointing. As a fan,I feel cheated when I see no effort from the players I expect to play up to the ticket price and the expectations of the fanbase. They act like they could give a shyt about us. That's the way I feel. This defense is coming along very nicely however, so I'll probably just take satisfaction that the Pats will probably be IN most of the games they play this season....but THIS O line? Playoffs? Heh...

Wow, Joker. You really do find yourself in a dark place after this win. I don't remember the first 3 games of last year inspiring confidence, but cannot recall this level of response from you then.

I believe BB can be deliberate and somewhat Machiavellian at times, but to suggest he deliberately installed a lousy OL in order to get Brady injured and make way for JAG is a little too Alexandre Dumas or King David and Bathsheba. If BB really wanted that outcome, send Brady on a bunch of naked bootlegs with slow developing pass plays. BB likes to win, and killing Brady is not the fast route to a winning record.

Remember BB had more than a year of watching Brady when Bledsoe went down. He has had weeks to watch JAG, who has zero familiarity with the NFL at this point. I cannot credit the line play to some Machiavellian end of removing Brady on a stretcher. Planning is involved, but possibly more poor execution of a plan that good execution with appropriate results. Losing Dante means any replacement is a step down. I have no idea what the options were, or if the current line coach is the best available, but I have to believe that is at the core of the issue. Maybe the players aren't embracing his new scheme, but I do know if they don't start embracing and executing some coherent scheme, intend it or not, JAG will see playing time. That line play Sunday cannot happen again.

 

[BSR]

Yikes, Mayo. That doesn't bode well for this team, unless Canon turns out to be better than Mankins and the other players actually improve some.

I've been suspicious of those who say that Mankins' loss is a big part of the pass protection issues, aside from the temporary adjustment period, but based on those starts, it sounds like the Pats losing their best run blocker may indirectly be a big part of the problem in pass protection.

I'm not sure I follow. To me the stats seem to indicate very little if any difference between with Mankins or without.

 

[ctpatsfan1]

Joker's comments are not without merit in the sense that the team, especially the OL, appear to be sleep walking or simply going through the motions. I don't think it is a lack of talent so let's simply set that argument aside, well in the case of everyone but Devey that is. Let us start with the premise that the most important thing to BB is winning. Second most important thing to BB is the present, not the future and certainly not the past. Taking those two premises together and I can't get to the point where BB is deliberately trying to get Brady hurt or out as that event would not give him the best opportunity to win now. I do think we are seeing the end of the Brady era in NE but I only think we are seeing the beginnings of that not the end game.

 

[Peachhead]

Four players have regressed. Solder & Vollmer, who both used to be pretty good. And Cannon & Conolly, and at least Cannon was half way decent in relief of Vollmer last year. Logic says all four guys didn't run out of gas or forget how to play at the exact same time. And Devey's a rookie from a small school (Memphis). He should be on the practice squad at best. That Googe is starting him is troubling. He even did it in preseason before Mankins was traded. You know Dante wouldn't be.

It's a system-wide problem. Namely the new O-line coach.

If Mankins was still here it wouldn't make an appreciable difference IMO. He was part of the interior O-line problems last year. Even if he improved from last year he's only one guy. But Dante is not walking back thru that door. And it won't really help anything for Googe to be fired partway through the season. I really don't know what to suggest to fix it part way thru the season.

As Koppen said in that clip posted by Pats68, "It's not a talent problem".

 

[mayoclinic]

Yikes, Mayo. That doesn't bode well for this team, unless Canon turns out to be better than Mankins and the other players actually improve some.

I've been suspicious of those who say that Mankins' loss is a big part of the pass protection issues, aside from the temporary adjustment period, but based on those starts, it sounds like the Pats losing their best run blocker may indirectly be a big part of the problem in pass protection.

I think the key is the center position. Someone mentioned recently (I apologize, I forget who and can't find the post) that Connolly has been questioned in the past in terms of his line calls. The film breakdown suggests that the line is often not in good position, suggesting that the line calls may not be right. That could possibly be why the line looked so much better with Stork in at center, even though Tedy Bruschi said yesterday that Stork didn't look ready. Stork seems to be progressing quickly, so hopefully he'll be ready soon.

IF that's the case, and IF Stork can get up to speed a bit more and solidify the line calls, then I think we would see a significant improvement. Solder isn't playing well, but that's probably a function of (1) a new OL coach, (2) losing Mankins, who was a stabilizing factor and a veteran presence, (3) a shifting line, and (4) possibly poor line calls. I think if the center position is stabilized that Solder will improve. Then it's just a question of finding the best combination among the personnel. Unless Devey does a radical turnaround, the options would seem to be:

Solder-Cannon-Stork-Connolly-Volmer
Solder-Connolly-Stork-Cannon-Vollmer
Solder-Vollmer-Stork-Connolly-Cannon
Solder-Cannon-Stork-Fleming-Vollmer
Solder-Connolly-Stork-Fleming-Vollmer
Solder-Vollmer-Stork-Fleming-Cannon

There's a fair amount of talent at OL. The line is currently playing worse than it's overall talent level. That suggests a coaching problem, or an issue with the line calls.

 

[Sicilian]

Let me just say how shocked, SHOCKED I am that Joker watches the poor play of the offensive line so far and manages to come up with an insane (yet sickly plausible) conspiracy theory behind it. That's not like him at all

 

[pencilneckgeek]

There's a fair amount of talent at OL. The line is currently playing worse than it's overall talent level. That suggests a coaching problem, or an issue with the line calls.

Or they simply need more time to gel, given limited practice time and a new coach.

I saw that post about Connolly's line calls, but didn't know what to make of it given the amount of stuff that gets made up on the spot around these parts, but it would help explain how Wendell held down his job for two years. Still, I would think Connolly would have figured things out by now.

 

[JackBauer]

Solder-Cannon-Stork-Fleming-Vollmer

I think this is the permutation that has the most upside and thus gives us the best shot in the postseason, assuming Solder is able to get his act together.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

I think everyone is in agreement to an extent that we do not want Devey, Wendell or Connolly out there for any period of time. But with Connolly being named a captain I dont think we see him drift off anytime soon.

 

[Marqui]

I think this is the permutation that has the most upside and thus gives us the best shot in the postseason, assuming Solder is able to get his act together.

I don't know if Cannon will ever be good at guard. He really looks like a tackle trying to play guard.

 

[Sicilian]

I actually think Solder-Connolly-Stork-Cannon-Vollmer might end up being our best bet. This is all assuming Stork progresses enough as a rookie and Solder straightens himself out. Cannon would essentially be competing with Fleming for the job at RG.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

I actually think Solder-Connolly-Stork-Cannon-Vollmer might end up being our best bet. This is all assuming Stork progresses enough as a rookie and Solder straightens himself out. Cannon would essentially be competing with Fleming for the job at RG.

When the all 22 tape is released later today we'll be able to see more of Stork's limited 4th quarter play

 

[JackBauer]

I actually think Solder-Connolly-Stork-Cannon-Vollmer might end up being our best bet. This is all assuming Stork progresses enough as a rookie and Solder straightens himself out. Cannon would essentially be competing with Fleming for the job at RG.

I don't think Connolly cuts it as a starting guard.

 

[Kontradiction]

I wonder how much worse it has to get before the team gets someone like Incognito on the phone. I hope the fix is already here internally. I also hope that whatever it takes to fix the OL happens quickly. Brady was sacked twice and hit another six times on Sunday. A 37 year old body doesn't recover from a high amount of hits the same way a 27 year old body does.

 

[mayoclinic]

Solder-Cannon-Stork-Fleming-Vollmer

I think this is the permutation that has the most upside and thus gives us the best shot in the postseason, assuming Solder is able to get his act together.

I don't know if Cannon will ever be good at guard. He really looks like a tackle trying to play guard.

I actually think Solder-Connolly-Stork-Cannon-Vollmer might end up being our best bet. This is all assuming Stork progresses enough as a rookie and Solder straightens himself out. Cannon would essentially be competing with Fleming for the job at RG.

I don't think Connolly cuts it as a starting guard.

Everyone has a different opinion. But if we can get set at the center position, with Solder set at LT, then we can figure out which solution works best. Maybe Cannon won't ever be good at guard, but it's hard to tell after only 3 games at LG and with an unstable line. Maybe Connolly doesn't cut it as a starting level guard. Maybe Fleming will be ready, maybe he won't; maybe he can play guard, maybe he can't. All questions to be figured out, but it will be a lot easier how to figure out how to take 4 players and fill 3 positions than to have the entire line in flux.

 

[Sicilian]

I don't think Connolly cuts it as a starting guard.

He might not, all things being equal. But to me our options for guards are:

Connolly - Veteran
Kline - Unproven
Devey - Proven terrible
Cannon - Might be better at T, and regardless may fit better at RG than LG if at all
Flemming - Rookie

Of those two, at the moment I prefer Connolly and Cannon, with the possibility of Flemming beating out Cannon in the long run.

 

[Kontradiction]

I don't think Connolly cuts it as a starting guard.

I expect it will be an experimentation between Connolly, Cannon, Kline, and Fleming.

 

[luuked]

This would have been one of those years where we would have benefitted from an early BYE.

If you ask me, the coaching staff and the OL has exactly 2 weeks to get their **** together. The Bengals game could become very, very ugly if they don't.

In an ideal world, where we have more time to get people adjusted to new positions I would love to see the 'Solder-Vollmer-Stork-Fleming-Cannon' experiment. I don't think it will happen but it would be very interesting.

 

[mayoclinic]

This would have been one of those years where we would have benefitted from an early BYE.

If you ask me, the coaching staff and the OL has exactly 2 weeks to get their **** together. The Bengals game could become very, very ugly if they don't.

The Bengals had 8 QB hits and 4 sacks last year. That was plenty ugly.

In an ideal world, where we have more time to get people adjusted to new positions I would love to see the 'Solder-Vollmer-Stork-Fleming-Cannon' experiment. I don't think it will happen but it would be very interesting.

I agree on both counts.

 

[Kontradiction]

This would have been one of those years where we would have benefitted from an early BYE.

If you ask me, the coaching staff and the OL has exactly 2 weeks to get their **** together. The Bengals game could become very, very ugly if they don't.

In an ideal world, where we have more time to get people adjusted to new positions I would love to see the 'Solder-Vollmer-Stork-Fleming-Cannon' experiment. I don't think it will happen but it would be very interesting.

If the OL keeps playing as it has the first three weeks, it's very conceivable that the Pats could get shut out twice in a row. Both KC and Cincy can rush the passer and KC is at home on Monday Night Football for the first time in a couple of years.