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Kirwan on Pats

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PatsFanInVa, Jul 21, 2007.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/10263096

    Breaks down the unique mix (old behind the lines, young in the trenches, to be simplistic,) discusses the impact of that mix on special teams. Good read.

    Did not see this in the first couple pages of links; if it's been posted before, please merge.

    PFnV
  2. patriot lifer

    patriot lifer Rookie

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    i especially enjoyed when he remarked that "they aren't becoming a one-year wonder team intent on one last Super Bowl run" when discussing the age of the team. some people out there may think they aren't built to last for a number of future superbowl runs
  3. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Great post, PFV!
    I especially loved this paragraph, that kinda says it all:

    ..."The Patriots are a unique team when you study them closely. The players who play with their hand on the ground, the offensive and defensive lines, are young and acquired through the draft. The starting offensive line averages 28 years of age and the defensive line averages 26. Many teams find themselves with their older players on the lines, where experience can really matter. Belichick has been drafting linemen on the first day of the draft and playing them early. But when it comes to other positions, he has no problem with a bunch of over-30 types"...

    Good stuff and very much tells the Patriot Way at this point in the Dynasty.
  4. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    He basically says "It's all good, except maybe on kick coverage."

    They certainly are taking some chances there, e.g. cutting my man Spann. Still, I expect they can put some good units together.
  5. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Very good article much better than the usual mile wide inch deep analysis you get from ESPN and others. BB has never had a problem using starters on ST's as needed . It's always to see where BB drafts and where he get Vets to fill the roster.
  6. mancunian

    mancunian Guest

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    Good article, though I do worry sometimes with the number of over 30's we have. Especially at LB.

    But then again I'm no football coach and its why BB is.
  7. BradfordPatsFan

    BradfordPatsFan Rookie

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    My worry isn't so much the number of 30+ guys but it is the number of 30+ guys who have been hurt in the last couple of years. Bruschi, Harrison, Seau, the heart of the back 7 really.
  8. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Kirwan qualifies this by noting its understandable that in a position where experience counts, BB has stockpiled experience... but with that comes age.

    The more interesting point is that when your backups are seasoned veterans, that can prevent developmental roster/special teams positions from going to younger players - who can develop into the experienced veterans.

    That's BB's challenge in part - as he's helped an organization evolve into perennial SB contenders keeping them there means a different mix of young and old players compared to a rebuilding team.

    That's where our so-called Shadow Roster comes in - players both young and old that BB moves in and out with the ability to call those guys back in, subject to availabilty, when he needs them. Personally I'd prefer a larger roster and practice squad, but the limits are what they are.
  9. italian pat patriot

    italian pat patriot Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    thanks/good article
  10. mancunian

    mancunian Guest

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    Oh I understood that - you need a good mix of experience and youth on any roster.
    I would like to see us bring through a couple of younger players to prepare for the future when there's no Bruschi, Vrabel, Seau. Colvin and Thomas are what both 30?
  11. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You may have a point, 6 of 13 Pats on the IR in 2006 were 30+...
    Code:
    8	Miller	Josh	  P	6-4	225	06/14/70	11	FA (PIT)-04	Arizona	Queens,  NY
    15	Walter	Ken	  P	6-1	207	08/15/72	9	FA-06	Kent State	Cleveland,  OH
    21	Gay Randall	  CB	5-11	190	5/5/1982	3	FA-04	Louisiana State	Brusly, La.
    24	Mitchell Mel	  S	6-1	225	2/10/1979	5	FA(NO)-06	Western Kentucky	Rockledge, Fla.
    26	Wilson	Eugene	  DB	5-10	195	8/17/80	4	D2a-03	Illinois	Merrillville, Ind.
    34	Jones Tebucky	  S	6-2	220	10/6/74	9	D1b-98	Syracuse	New Britain, Conn.
    35	Pass Patrick	  RB	5-10	217	12/31/77	7	D7b-00	Georgia	Scottsdale  Ga.
    42	Williams Gemara CB	5-8	180	4/30/83	R	FA-06	Buffalo	Oak Park, Mich.
    45	Mills Garrett	  TE	6-1	235	10/12/83	R	D4a-06	Tulsa	Jenks, Okla.
    47	Gardner Barry	  LB	6-1	245	12/13/76	8	FA-06	Northwestern	Harvey, Ill.
    51	Davis	Don	  LB	6-1	235	12/17/72	11	UFA(STL)-03	Kansas	Olathe, Kan.
    55	Seau	Junior	  LB	6-3	248	01/19/69	17	FA-06	Southern California	San Diego, Calif.
    74	Yates	Billy	  G	6-2	305	04/15/80	3	FA-03	Texas A&M	Fort Worth, Texas
    Up from 4 of 11 30+ in 2005...
    Code:
    47	Claridge Ryan	  LB	6-2	254	04/12/81	R	D5-05	Nevada-Las Vegas 	Almont, Mich.
    21	Gay Randall	  CB	5-11	186	05/05/82	2	FA-04	Louisiana State 	Brusly, La.
    37	Harrison Rodney  S	6-1	220	12/15/72	12	FA(SD)-03	Western Illinois 	Chicago, Ill.
    67	Koppen	Dan	  C	6-2	296	09/12/79	3	D5-03	Boston College 	Whitehall, Pa.
    72	Light	Matt	  T	6-4	305	06/23/78	5	D2-01	Purdue	Greenville, Ohio
    15	McGrew Michael  WR	6-2	201	05/17/82	R	FA-05	Virginia	Birmingham, Ala.
    38	Poole	Tyrone	  CB	5-8	188	02/03/72	10	UFA(DEN)-03	Fort Valley State 	LaGrange, Ga.
    30	Scott	Chad	  CB	6-1	202	09/06/74	9	FA(PIT)-05	Maryland	Capital Heights, Md.
    29	Scott	Gus	  S	5-10	205	05/21/82	2	D3-04	Florida	Jacksonville, Fla.
    23	Starks	Duane	  CB	5-10	174	05/23/74	8	TR(ARZ)-05	Miami(Fla.)	Miami, Fla.
    99	Wright	Mike	  DL	6-4	295	03/01/82	R	FA-05	Cincinnati	Cincinnati, Ohio
    Up from 2 of 11 30+ in 2004...
    Code:
    49	Alexander Eric  LB	6-2	240	02/08/82	1	FA-04	Louisiana State	Port Arthur, Tex.
    68	Ashworth Tom	  T	6-6	305	10/10/77	3	FA-01	Colorado	Englewood, Colo.
    96	Bailey	Rodney	  DL	6-3	305	10/07/79	4	RFA (PIT)-04	Ohio State	Cleveland, Ohio
    46	Flemister Zeron TE	6-4	250	09/08/76	5	UFA (WAS)-04	Iowa	Sioux City, Iowa
    90	Klecko	Dan	  DL/LB 5-11	275	01/12/81	2	D4a-03(117th overall)	Temple	Colts Neck, N.J.
    70	Klemm	Adrian	  T	6-3	312	05/21/77	4	D2-00 (46th overall)	Hawaii	Los Angeles, Calif.
    24	Law	Ty	  CB	5-11	200	02/10/74	10	D1-95 (23rd overall)	Michigan	Aliquippa, Pa.
    38	Poole	Tyrone	  CB	5-8	188	02/03/72	9	UFA(DEN)-03	Fort Valley State	LaGrange, Ga.
    14	Sam	P.K.	  WR	6-3	210	02/26/83	R	D5-04 (164th overall)	Florida State 	Buford, Ga.
    39	Scott	Guss	  S	5-10	205	05/21/82	R	D3-04 (95th overall)	Florida	Jacksonville, Fla.
    84	Watson Benjamin TE	6-3	253	12/18/80	R	D1-04 (32nd overall)	Georgia	Rock Hill, S.C.
    Down from 2 of 10 30+ in 2003...
    Code:
    59	Colvin	Rosevelt  LB	6-3	250	09/05/77	5	UFA (CHI)-03 	Purdue	Olathe, Kan. 
    77	Compton Mike	   G/C	6-6	310	09/18/70	11	UFA (DET)-01 	West Virginia	Richlands, Va. 
    16	Kingsbury Kliff  QB	6-3	220	08/09/79	R	D6-03	Texas Tech 	New Braunfels, Texas 
    70	Klemm	Adrian    T	6-3	312	05/21/77	4	D2-00	Hawaii	Inglewood, Calif. 
    44	McCrary Fred     FB	6-0	247	09/19/72	7	FA (SD)-03 	Mississippi State 	Naples, Fla. 
    49	McDermott Sean   LS	6-4	250	12/05/76	3	FA (MIA)-03 	Kansas	Lufkin, Texas 
    64	Mruczkowski Gene OL	6-2	305	06/06/80	R	FA-03	Purdue	Cleveland, Ohio 
    61	Neal	Stephen   G	6-4	305	10/09/76	2	FA-01	Cal State-Bakersfield 	San Diego, Calif. 
    86	Patten	David     WR	5-10	190	08/19/74	7	UFA (CLE)-01 	Western Carolina	Columbia, S.C.
    66	Paxton	Lonie     LS	6-2	260	03/13/78	4	FA-00	Sacramento State 	Anaheim, Calif.
    Up from 0 of 5 30 + in 2002...
    Code:
    58	Chatham Matt	LB	6-4	248	06/28/77	3	CW (STL)-00 	South Dakota 	Newton, Iowa 
    31	Kelly	Ben	CB	5-9	185	09/15/78	3	FA-02	Colorado	Cleveland, Ohio 
    37	Kelly	Rob	S	6-0	205	06/21/74	5	FA-02	Ohio State 	Newark, Ohio 
    61	Neal Stephen	G	6-4	305	10/09/76	1	FA-01	Cal State - Bakersfield 	San Diego, Calif. 
    45	Smith	Otis	CB	5-11	198	10/22/65	13	FA-00	Missouri	New Orleans, La.
    Down from 1 of 10 30+ in 2001...
    Code:
    14	Williams Walter  RB	6-0	210	09/08/77	R	Grambling	FA-01	Leg
    28	Williams Brock   CB	5-10	195	08/11/79	R	Notre Dame	D3-01	Knee
    31	Kelly	Ben	   CB	5-9	185	09/15/78	2	Colorado	CW (MIA)-01	Foot
    38	Hill	Ray	   CB	6-0	190	08/07/75	4	Michigan State	CW (Buf)-01	Knee
    49	Holloway Jabari  TE	6-2	258	12/18/78	R	Notre Dame	D4b-01	Leg
    59	Katzenmoyer Andy LB	6-3	260	12/02/77	3	Ohio State	D1b-99	Neck
    70	Klemm	Adrian	   T	6-3	312	05/21/77	2	Hawaii	D2-00	Leg
    82	Jackson Curtis   WR	5-10	194	09/22/73	2	Texas	FA-00	Ankle
    90	Moore	Marty	   LB	6-1	245	03/19/71	8	Kentucky	FA-01	Achilles
    99	Ayi	Kole	   LB	6-1	231	09/21/78	R	Massachusetts	FA-01	Leg
    The trouble is, I'm not seeing a strong trend. In 2005 the defending Super Bowl Champion NEP were coming off back to back Super Bowls, probably a bit worn down, and wearing a seariously big target on their backs. 2006 was considered a rebuilding year by some, myself included, the Pats were still wearing a bullseye, probably not much smaller considering how the Steelers were self-destructing, and despite those old guys going down still got pretty darned close to winning it all again. In Bill Belichick we trust, and with good reason. Bring on the old farts!
  12. Nefan12345

    Nefan12345 Rookie

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    Here's my worry - and no one seems to have picked up on it yet - We know (assume) Bill is in the last year of his contract. We also know that Brady restructured his contract to help us get Welker (or was it Thomas?) Anyway - that restructure means Pats have to pay a lot of money or rework Brady's contract come next year. Is there any chance Bill and Brady could both leave together for a new team?

    I know it seems ridiculous - but after decades of being a NE sport fan I am kind of trained to watch for the shoe to drop.
  13. Wretch

    Wretch Rookie

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    I'm as pessimistic as the next NE fan but this isn't a viable scenario in my opinion. There is NO way Kraft lets Brady the face of the franchise walk away while he is still in his prime, and I hope that we never see Tom in another uniform. He should retire as a Pat. I wasn't a 49ers fan but it was tough to see Joe Montana and Ronnie Lott in different uniforms.

    As for Bill, why would he go anywhere else? He and Scot have worked very hard to shape the entire organization from the bottom to the top. Why would Bill want to start over from scrtach. I think I can say with relative certainty Bill hates to lose and if he changes teams then he will be taking a step back in that regard. This organization is designed to win now and in a the future and is doesn't need to be blown up and rebuilt like say the Giants.

    But hey anything is possible.
  14. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We don't know anything about BB's contract and the only people "ass-uming" either fall into "the sky is falling" crowd or the "we are sick of the Patriots winning" crowd.

    Yes, your entire theory is ridiculous.
  15. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    Box,
    I think this is a tough one to figure from the stats. You can't look at how many players over 30 went on IR without also knowing how many over 30 were on the roster at the time. Then you'd have to factor in how many snaps were played by players over 30 and whether they were in positions more amenable to aging players (e.g. OL as opposed to RB or DB). On top of that, 30 is just a number. Maybe 32 is a better number, maybe the number varies by position.

    All of that says that 'average age' is a useless stat, as is # of players over 30 on IR. More importantly, it's whether the team is dependent on a lot of older players at one position. Which is why I think it's a valid concern for the LBs.

    P.S. With all due respect, I'm going to ignore NEfan1-5. Sounds to me like he's been overdosing on Red Sox talk radio and needs some time at the Gilletty Ford clinic.
  16. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We don't know that Bill is in his last year, we can't even "assume" it given the various reporting has been nothing more than wild speculation.

    Brady restructured his contract to allow the Moss trade; per Miguel's Cap Page Brady is still signed through 2010, that's four seasons of not to worry.

    Since the premise for your paranoid horror vision is based on one "fact" documented to be incorrect and one "fact" with no credible news source, I'd say it's time to hit the showers, grab a cold one, and get ready to be excited about Training Camp. :rocker:

    p.s. Remember to read Mike Reiss (Globe) and Albert Breer (Herald) before listening to Adam Schefter on a slow news day. ;)
  17. dryheat44

    dryheat44 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    1. Brady is not a free agent, so I don't understand how he'll be free to leave.
    2. If Brady were a free agent, this is the exact scenario the franchise tag was created for.
    3. The situations the two are in will never be better. There are very few franchises where the GM can run football operations in virtual autonomy. Tom Brady is the most popular athlete here since Larry Bird. Why would either one leave until retirement?
  18. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sure it's tough to figure, even if I had a clue when it came to stats. :D The bottom line is BB does know a thing about stats and especially how they apply to the game of football in the NFL, which leaves me the more pleasant task of preparing to enjoy my Patriots this season even with half the team using walkers or wheelchairs. :singing:

    As for NEfan12345, this is the first of his 7 posts to catch my eye, we've got regulars here who post similar ill thought out fears, I'll have him join mcbee and patsgo on the ignore list when he gets abusive. Until then, he's cool.
  19. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    The age thing is such an individual issue. McGinest had more injury problems when he was younger. I don't want to jinx anyone, foolish superstitious fellow that I am, so I'll avoid names, but a few of the Pats more ancient players keep themselves in good physical shape and have learned that economy of movement for which the elderly are noted.

    NEfan12345 is not even close to being a problem, he just needs to take his meds, like the rest of us. :)
  20. Nefan12345

    Nefan12345 Rookie

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    You guys make sense...I am trying to remember where I read about Brady's contract restructing and how that makes his cap space very hard to absorb next year (forcing a new contract negotiation). I'll find the link and post it.

    Till then - you all have been helpful. I dont want any of this to be possible.

    BTW I am a she, (a high school teacher even!) not a he - so go easy on me. I am still figuring it all out. Which is why I love this board!

    Editing to add - I found the article that caused the concern...

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2859992

    Here's the quote:


    "Because while the restructuring for this year reduced Brady's 2007 salary-cap charge to $7.346 million, roughly $4 million less than before the deal was redone Sunday morning, it inflated the cap hit for each of the subsequent seasons through 2010. All of the maneuvering with the new six-year, $60 million contract that Brady signed in May of 2005 -- the initial $14.5 million signing bonus, a $12 million option bonus in March 2006 that was converted into a second signing bonus, and Sunday's machinations -- means the quarterback is carrying prohibitive cap charges over the final three seasons of the contract.


    Just how prohibitive? Try a cap charge of $14.626 million for 2008.


    Without a new deal, Tom Brady's cap number will become a big problem for the Patriots.

    Even if the league's spending limit increases to $116 million in 2008, as anticipated, Brady's cap charge, if untouched, would represent a whopping 12.6 percent of the New England budget. By comparison, his cap charge for 2007 is 6.7 percent of a $109 million cap. For owner Bob Kraft, such an excessive amount tied up in one player in 2008 would leave him little recourse.


    He would almost certainly have to negotiate a new contract, which could be one of the most lucrative in NFL history, or extend the current deal."
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2007
  21. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Why on earth would you assume he is in the last year? What would make you think that?
  22. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    Welcome aboard and sorry about any rude comments. Talk of Brady's or Belichick's contracts incites the urge to pile on. I hear what you're saying about Brady's contract, but truthfully, that kind of talk is created by the media in their urge to fill the vacuum this time of year.

    As for the meds, they're not gender specific. A shot glass of kool-aid whenever the media folks give you the jitters. ;)
  23. T-ShirtDynasty

    T-ShirtDynasty Moderator

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    Now that we have a guy on the team that goes by that nickname, the reference is becoming, um, disturbing. :D
  24. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    I could have done without that image, thanks. :bricks:
  25. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Prior to Brady "restructuring" his contract, he was going to count in the neighborhood of 13 million, give or take. The restructuring lowered this year's current hit. Yes, it raised next years by 1.93 million, but its really not that much. Especially since the last year of Brady's contract (2010) is only scheduled to cound 8.9 million against the cap. Brady could "restructure) his contracts in 2008 and 2009 and be fine. Without a contract extension.

    Also, its not like Brady's contract hasn't been a signicant number previously. That article is a know nothing in the name of Lenny "Pasta-belly" Pasquerelli shooting his mouth off about a subject that is way to complex for him.

    As a reference, please see this
    http://www.patscap.com/capfootnotes.html#brady

    Also, in 2005, Brady accounted for 8.5 million against the 82 million cap. That was more than 10% of the cap number. And in 2006, Brady counted for 13.56 million of the 102 million (99 for the Pats). OR 13.69%..
  26. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat Rookie

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    Which brings me to my next point: Don't listen to ESPN!

    The notion of Tom Brady on any other team next year is silly, ridiculous, and downright stupid. It doesn't pass the smell test. NE would take a $15M cap hit on him and not blink before they'd imagine letting him go. Sometimes (or all of the time, really) you just need to smile and laugh when someone at ESPN gets stupid.
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2007
  27. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    From what I could see, ESPN was talking about having to re-do his deal next year, not Brady playing on any other team. What was not mentioned, is that Brady's cap hit was set to be north of 14M this year (or was it 11 this year, 14 next year?) Anyway, a lot; if the former, that pushes about 4M forward over 3 seasons, hardly a make-or-break proposition. If the latter, it's just 2M.

    Regardless, either a) this had to be done in the first place, or b) the "prohibitive" 14M+ is actually planned.

    I would imagine everybody would love a deal that lets Tom retire a Patriot, and pays him out over the next, say, eight years. Think Trent Green. Methusaleh. My little brother (whom I don't actually have.) Whatever.

    Unless Mo Lewis hits him, nicks his aorta, and takes him out for the season, during which time Matt Cassel proves that he should have been starting at USC all along, I don't give a snowball's chance in hell to the idea of Brady moving on anytime soon.

    I'm actually pretty sure that it's supposed to happen sometime subsequent to dogs lying down with cats, the moon turning blood red, and the New York Giants winning the super bowl, if you read scripture.

    PFnV
  28. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    I'm not going to pile on nefan123454. All I would do is ask, why?

    Why would BB leave the job he was born to do and has total control over an NFL team? If he decides he want to see another side of life, maybe. That would be the only reason that I can think of.

    Why would the Patriots even think of letting Tom become a FA? Yes, if we win another championship he is less likely to not bend on his money. But, the guy is a winner and winning is very important to him. So, when push comes to shove he will want to help out if it means getting or keeping another player. He can make money by doing endorsements.
  29. Nefan12345

    Nefan12345 Rookie

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    the only 'why' I can imagine is that he woud want to win a superbowl with more than one team
  30. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    Think about the way a team sport works and about how Brady (or any team leader) thinks. Players move on because (a) they want more money or (b) they'd like to start but there's a young superstar on the roster ahead of them or (c) (Tom Jackson says) they hate their coach or (d) their team is a perpetual loser.

    Tom Brady (a) has enough money to run for president and will get more when the time comes, (b) is the unquestioned franchise leader with total locker room respect, (c) is universally loved by the management, coaches, and fans, and (d) is on a historic winning team.

    Let me add (e) players play for their teammates and I'm willing to bet Brady is as close to that team as any group he's known. It's those teammates he won't leave and it's for them he wants to win again. And again. And again.

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