Kicker

[italian pat patriot]

I think you just talked yourself into keeping both kickers!

that's true !

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

Keep in mind that it wasn't that long ago that Gramatica was one of the games best kickers. Not only was he one of the games best kickers but he also has kicked in pressure situations including several playoff games, a conference championship and a super bowl.

Injuries, and probably a lack of confidence, curtailed what was once a stellar career for this guy but if he's back healthy and in the proper mindset (as appears to be the situation in both cases) this guy could be a very capable and competant addition for us. And, compared to other PK's, he's not that old either (30 years).

 

[Kdo5]

Sounds nuts to me.

My bet is on Gostkowski, who, while slightly less accurate, has more power and a lot more youth.

Grammatica's good performance in camp will land him on another team.

If we keep two QB's we could carry 2 kickers, makes sense to me. I mean the Ghost for QB #3 :singing:

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

If we keep two QB's we could carry 2 kickers, makes sense to me. I mean the Ghost for QB #3 :singing:

Caldwell's the one tossing the spiral in the reverse option play.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Gramatica is a damned good kicker who was suffering fropm a serious injury. I believe he wil be our kicker, and IMO, an improvement, especially on kickoffs.

"Martin Gramatica’s kickoffs were a little short today and he missed a field goal attempt at the end of practice. The veteran also had one of his long kicks go through the uprights, although it was tipped at the line of scrimmage."

Tom Casale, PFW 8/8/2006

Gramatica has a career KO AVE of 62.9, kicking for a warm weather team in a warm weather division. He has a career PK % of 76.5.

AV has a career KO AVE of 62.4, kicking for a cold weather team in a primarily cold weather division. He has a career PK % of 81.9. His distance and accuracy are markedly better in warm weather or indoor venues, as are almost all kickers...

Keep in mind that it wasn't that long ago that Gramatica was one of the games best kickers. Not only was he one of the games best kickers but he also has kicked in pressure situations including several playoff games, a conference championship and a super bowl.

Injuries, and probably a lack of confidence, curtailed what was once a stellar career for this guy but if he's back healthy and in the proper mindset (as appears to be the situation in both cases) this guy could be a very capable and competant addition for us. And, compared to other PK's, he's not that old either (30 years).

He'll be 31 in November. Gramatca has never been a terribly popular teamate which likely explains why someone dubbed Automatica would be cut by his SB team half way through a season less than 2 years into a long term deal at a dead cap cost of over $2M if the only real problem he had was a sports hernia.

As I said in my earlier post, IF they had a VIABLE plan...this was stop gap. They didn't contact Martin until after Adam signed, and they didn't begin scouting college kickers until then either. Which was a strange strategy for a team planning to replace a HOF PK in a weak veteran FA market.

Hopefully it works out OK over the long haul. But we won't know until the season is over. My guess is it will be a 2 kicker season unless injuries force their hand from a roster standpoint.

 

[Kdo5]

Caldwell's the one tossing the spiral in the reverse option play.

I can see that happening. Caldwell's brother was a star QB in high school but turned WR at Florida. It must run in their blood line.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

He'll be 31 in November.

He's still 3 years younger than Adam is.

And he's a child compared to the likes of Kasey, Stover, Karney and Elam.

He's also younger than Nedney, Mare, Longwell, Akers, Wilkins and plenty more starting PK's in the NFL.

Gramatca has never been a terribly popular teamate which likely explains why someone dubbed Automatica would be cut by his SB team half way through a season less than 2 years into a long term deal at a dead cap cost of over $2M if the only real problem he had was a sports hernia.

As long as he can make kicks he doesn't need to be popular.

As I said in my earlier post, IF they had a VIABLE plan...this was stop gap. They didn't contact Martin until after Adam signed, and they didn't begin scouting college kickers until then either. Which was a strange strategy for a team planning to replace a HOF PK in a weak veteran FA market.

I think this regime has earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to planning their rosters.

 

[spacecrime]

Kicking on a practice field and kicking in game conditions in the NFL are two entirely different things. Pre season will show us more, but likely not enough since our chances of encountering bad weather or real (as opposed to contrived) pressure are almost nil. And it will be the guy who sends the most PK down the middle who starts the season, not the guy with a little more leg who just manages to get them through. Coaches need to make their decisions based on consistency - not possibility.

The kid would have had to be a real phenom to nail the position. He was the best of a weak kicking draft class. If Belichick had any faith in Dramatica he wouldn't have drafted a kicker in the 4th. Either one of these guys could fold like a cheap shirt on a moments notice and at the most inopportune juncture - like December or January. Smart money says Belichck won't risk the season on either of them so he'll carry both.

So much for how easily replaceable a HOF kicker is. These two will cost half as much on the cap, but they will take up two roster spots. If Gramatica ends up performing he'll want an expensive LT deal. If the kid remains a question mark they will have to try another veteran and probably another draftee heading into 2007. Vinatieri was their one mis step of the off season. They misread his market and his resolve. Otherwise they would have had a viable fallback plan in place, as they actually did for Givens (Caldwell and a 1st or 2nd round WR) and Willie (Vrabel moving back and Colvin ready to start FT).

A lot of "ifs" in this scenario, not the smallest of which is that AV is a HOFer. Almost every sentence in the last two paragraphs is emminently debatable. But why do you say we did not have a fallback position? Who's to say their fallback wasn't signing a veteran kicker for insurance and drafting high enough to ensure they got the best kicker in the draft? You make it sound like a negative, but what better fallback position could there be than the best young kicker avaialble and an insurance veteran?

I don't think they misread anything regarding AV. If they really wanted him they could have franchised him.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

A lot of "ifs" in this scenario, not the smallest of which is that AV is a HOFer. Almost every sentence in the last two paragraphs is emminently debatable. But why do you say we did not have a fallback position? Who's to say their fallback wasn't signing a veteran kicker for insurance and drafting high enough to ensure they got the best kicker in the draft? You make it sound like a negative, but what better fallback position could there be than the best young kicker avaialble and an insurance veteran?

I don't think they misread anything regarding AV. If they really wanted him they could have franchised him.

No they couldn't. They had agreed not to when he quietly signed his second franchise tender in the span of 3 Superbowl Championships in 2005. They really wanted him, enough to carry him on thier cap for $2.5M+ in consecutive seasons, they just didn't want to commit to a 5 year deal by giving him the requisite signing bonus money up front. Push come to shove (which they didn't think it would) they apparently would have. But at that point he didn't give them that one last chance because as he said they had 2 years to get a LT deal done. Oh well...

If you think a retread with a history of more than physical problems and the top PK prospect in a weak draft represents a (and I said) VIABLE fallback....dream on. They aren't stupid or willful or unmotivated to win as some have suggested here today. But they are stubborn and occasionally make a miscalculation or mistake. This was likely one, because he should have been extended long term two years ago, but it's done now and so we move on as best we can. That is what Gramatica and Gostkowski represent. Hopefully one or both of them or some other combination (including a ramped up offense if Jackson and Branch can get themselves on the field) takes the FO off the hook for a rare misstep.

 

[Hoodie]

A buddy of mine has been saying for months that he believes Belichick will carry two kickers this fall. Not sure if I agree with him yet. On the same note, I don't see Gostkowski landing on the practice squad - I see him being scooped up by another team if he is waived.

Call me crazy, I think BB's going with two kickers. I suspect that's why he didn't pick up a veteran QB to back up Brady. Just going with Cassel gives them an extra roster slot.

 

[pats1]

Call me crazy, I think BB's going with two kickers. I suspect that's why he didn't pick up a veteran QB to back up Brady. Just going with Cassel gives them an extra roster slot.

Unless one can't kickoff, I think that's a waste. Also, unless Gramatica tears apart the Georgia Dome roof kicking, I don't know if too many teams would want to bring him in. Gostkowski is a different story, simply because of his potential.

 

[PATSNUTme]

One of the other issues is height.

I read a report (from mini-camp?) that Gramatica was kicking with a lower trajectory than Gostkowski. That matters a lot with teams seriously straining to block kicks. Have any of our training camp visitors noticed any differences here?

Your observation is a keen one.

Today, I watched both of those guys as they were out earlier than the rest.

Ghost's kicks were certainly higher than Gram's. They flew off the tee so a 6'6 guy with good leaping ability could not get his hand on one.

They were both equally accurate today from what I saw. Ghost kickoff's were a good 10 yards longer.

That is just one days observation. Tomorrow and through someone elses eyes it could be different. The only observations that really count are Sealy's and BB's.

 

[DaBruinz]

Gramatica has a career KO AVE of 62.9, kicking for a warm weather team in a warm weather division. He has a career PK % of 76.5.

AV has a career KO AVE of 62.4, kicking for a cold weather team in a primarily cold weather division. He has a career PK % of 81.9. His distance and accuracy are markedly better in warm weather or indoor venues, as are almost all kickers...

Yes, lets over-look the fact that the last 2 years of kicking that Grammatica performed was done with a torn groin. That makes a WORLD of difference.

Look at Grammatica's numbers before the injury. Not after the injury, which wasn't repaired until May or June of 2005.

He'll be 31 in November. Gramatca has never been a terribly popular teamate which likely explains why someone dubbed Automatica would be cut by his SB team half way through a season less than 2 years into a long term deal at a dead cap cost of over $2M if the only real problem he had was a sports hernia.

He was cut because he wasn't performing due to an undiagnosed groin injury. The one that went undiagnosed for 2 years. But you insist on ignoring that.

As I said in my earlier post, IF they had a VIABLE plan...this was stop gap. They didn't contact Martin until after Adam signed, and they didn't begin scouting college kickers until then either. Which was a strange strategy for a team planning to replace a HOF PK in a weak veteran FA market.

Actually, this is false. The Pats had been in contact with Grammatica in 2005. They took a wait and see attitude with Vinatieri.

As for when they signed Grammatica, yes, they waited until after Adam signed with the Dolts because they didn't want to burn bridges. Also, how do you know that they didn't start scouting college kickers until Adam signed? I think that is a big BS assumption on your part and it would speak poorly of the Patriots scouting staff if it was the case. My bet is that they had scouting kickers for the past 2 years at the very least. They DID bring in Robbie Gould last year and I fully believe that Gould would have been the first person they called if he hadn't signed with the Bears last season.

Hopefully it works out OK over the long haul. But we won't know until the season is over. My guess is it will be a 2 kicker season unless injuries force their hand from a roster standpoint.

 

[captain stone]

No they couldn't. They had agreed not to when he quietly signed his second franchise tender in the span of 3 Superbowl Championships in 2005. They really wanted him, enough to carry him on thier cap for $2.5M+ in consecutive seasons, they just didn't want to commit to a 5 year deal by giving him the requisite signing bonus money up front. Push come to shove (which they didn't think it would) they apparently would have. But at that point he didn't give them that one last chance because as he said they had 2 years to get a LT deal done. Oh well...

If you think a retread with a history of more than physical problems and the top PK prospect in a weak draft represents a (and I said) VIABLE fallback....dream on. They aren't stupid or willful or unmotivated to win as some have suggested here today. But they are stubborn and occasionally make a miscalculation or mistake. This was likely one, because he should have been extended long term two years ago, but it's done now and so we move on as best we can. That is what Gramatica and Gostkowski represent. Hopefully one or both of them or some other combination (including a ramped up offense if Jackson and Branch can get themselves on the field) takes the FO off the hook for a rare misstep.

Mo is right; the FO effed up the AV situation. Period.
I also agree with JackBauer: the thought of the little soccertrash Hamburgler wearing The Patriots Uniform gives me the creeps.
Does anyone know the answer to this conundrum? The FO may have "agreed", at the start of the season, not to franchise AV; but what, if anything, could have stopped them from doing it, at the end of the season, anyway?
It seems to me that this "agreement" spelled the end of Vinatraitor's career here, one year before it officially happened.

 

[DaBruinz]

No they couldn't. They had agreed not to when he quietly signed his second franchise tender in the span of 3 Superbowl Championships in 2005.

Your right. They couldn't Franchise Vinatieri a 3rd time because the new CBA wouldn't allow them to. The new CBA says that a player that gets franchised 3 times has to be paid the equivalent of (I think) the franchise number for QBs. That would have meant paying Vinatieri at 10M or so.

They really wanted him, enough to carry him on thier cap for $2.5M+ in consecutive seasons, they just didn't want to commit to a 5 year deal by giving him the requisite signing bonus money up front.

Yes, they wanted Adam so badly that their initial contract offer included no signing bonus money at all. It wasn't until follow-up offers that they put guaranteed money into their offers.

Push come to shove (which they didn't think it would) they apparently would have. But at that point he didn't give them that one last chance because as he said they had 2 years to get a LT deal done. Oh well...

Actually, that was a BS lie on Vinatieri's part. The Patriots couldn't have done anything in the last year because Vinatieri's agent was suspended by the NFLPA and Vinatieri hadn't named a repalcement. The fact of the matter is that Adam, who has MORE of a history of leg and back issues than Grammatica does, wanted guarantees that only an idiot GM would give a player. And an idiot GM did give him those guarantees. The same idiot GM that couldn't manage his rookie cap properly and couldn't sign his 3rd round pick to the numbers that the 3rd round pick wanted.

If you think a retread with a history of more than physical problems and the top PK prospect in a weak draft represents a (and I said) VIABLE fallback....dream on.

Yes, actually, I DO feel they are viable fallbacks. At some point every player either gets too expensive for a team or runs himself off the team. And at some point, you have to replace that player with either a veteran (Grammatica) or a rookie (Gostkowski). That's the life of football.

They aren't stupid or willful or unmotivated to win as some have suggested here today. But they are stubborn and occasionally make a miscalculation or mistake. This was likely one, because he should have been extended long term two years ago, but it's done now and so we move on as best we can.

And you act like its all the team's fault that Vinatieri wasn't extended previously. Its just as much Vinatieri's fault as it was the teams, though I blame Vinatieri more because he clearly made no attempt to replace his agent prior to this off-season. If Vinatieri has TRULY wanted to stay with the Pats, he would have replaced his agent immediately and gotten a deal done.

That is what Gramatica and Gostkowski represent. Hopefully one or both of them or some other combination (including a ramped up offense if Jackson and Branch can get themselves on the field) takes the FO off the hook for a rare misstep.

Grammatica and Gostkowski represent the future. They represent the constant change of a football team.

BTW, while you think that this was a mis-step for the team, I disagree. I don't believe that it was a mis-step at all. Not paying a kicker with a history of leg and back problems, who can't hit a 50 yard FG, and who can't consistently get the ball inside the 5 yard line is my idea of good management.

 

[patchick]

Look at Grammatica's numbers before the injury. Not after the injury, which wasn't repaired until May or June of 2005.

Ok, I did the numbers. In four seasons before the injury he:

- Hit 82.1 percent of FG attempts

- Averaged 63.5 per KO

- Got a touchback on 11.1 percent of KOs

Those are indeed excellent numbers. There's no saying at this point that he can regain that form, but given the apparent strong camp showing I feel just fine with the Patriots placekicking situation: a solid veteran and a promising rookie. How can anyone see this as a disaster, or no viable backup plan?

 

[T-ShirtDynasty]

Mo is right; the FO effed up the AV situation. Period.

Mo is right ...very, very frequently. However, it's much, much too early to say the Patriots front office 'effed up the AV situation. Period.' And until history comes in to play to actually settle it... I'm sure Mo will forgive me for putting my money on one of the best personnel departments in the NFL.

And before the I'm Ron Borges caricature comes in with his usual hit-and-run 'Oh you Patriot Fans...' garbage, or one of the Gloom and Doomers screams 'Homer!!!' ... all I'm saying is it's too soon to tell. I'm not saying they're infallible, or that all the front office moves are inherently perfect. Just that everytime this organization makes a move that, on the surface looks like a gross miscalculation, they've been proven right enough times to give them the benefit of a wait and see stance.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Your right. They couldn't Franchise Vinatieri a 3rd time because the new CBA wouldn't allow them to. The new CBA says that a player that gets franchised 3 times has to be paid the equivalent of (I think) the franchise number for QBs. That would have meant paying Vinatieri at 10M or so.

Wrong, they could have because the deadline for them to do that was before the new CBA was agreed on and because he only played under the franchise tag once - the first time it was withdrawn when they signed a 3 year deal about a week after tagging him.



Yes, they wanted Adam so badly that their initial contract offer included no signing bonus money at all. It wasn't until follow-up offers that they put guaranteed money into their offers.

Exactly right even though you don't get it. They were willing to pay him to be the highest salaried kicker in the league as long as they didn't have to commit via bonus as the dead cap security essentially employing him as the highest salared kicker at their discretion on a year to year basis. Kinda like a franchise tag without the 20% increase or March 1 guarantee feature.


Actually, that was a BS lie on Vinatieri's part. The Patriots couldn't have done anything in the last year because Vinatieri's agent was suspended by the NFLPA and Vinatieri hadn't named a repalcement. The fact of the matter is that Adam, who has MORE of a history of leg and back issues than Grammatica does, wanted guarantees that only an idiot GM would give a player. And an idiot GM did give him those guarantees. The same idiot GM that couldn't manage his rookie cap properly and couldn't sign his 3rd round pick to the numbers that the 3rd round pick wanted.

Tedy doesn't have an agent. I wonder how we ever got him signed....


Yes, actually, I DO feel they are viable fallbacks. At some point every player either gets too expensive for a team or runs himself off the team. And at some point, you have to replace that player with either a veteran (Grammatica) or a rookie (Gostkowski). That's the life of football.

The fact that you have to do something doesn't make the alternative you are left with viable.


And you act like its all the team's fault that Vinatieri wasn't extended previously. Its just as much Vinatieri's fault as it was the teams, though I blame Vinatieri more because he clearly made no attempt to replace his agent prior to this off-season. If Vinatieri has TRULY wanted to stay with the Pats, he would have replaced his agent immediately and gotten a deal done.

It's a wonder Kraft ever gets these extensions done with Belichick considering his "lawyer" was Adam's suspended agent.


Grammatica and Gostkowski represent the future. They represent the constant change of a football team.

Gostkowski may well represent the future. It's the present that concerns me.

BTW, while you think that this was a mis-step for the team, I disagree. I don't believe that it was a mis-step at all. Not paying a kicker with a history of leg and back problems, who can't hit a 50 yard FG, and who can't consistently get the ball inside the 5 yard line is my idea of good management.

Somehow the kicker you believe had such a troubling physical history still managed to outkick the midget with the hernia and BB likes guys who can play through injuries, not guys who can't play if anything hurts. Gramatica's former teamates say he was not mentally tough. If Gramatica was really just hurt don't you think the Bucs would have done whatever it took to protect their investment, and failing that had to reach an injury settlement rather than just cutting him in mid season? And rather than getting his problem fixed he just signed on as a KO specialist with the Colts while he was in agony??? Some of us are so naive...

And for the last time, Adam can kick 50 yarders about as well as either of these guys will this season. He can also routinely boot 65+ yard KO's in domes and warm weather venues, he just didn't have that luxury nearly as often as did Automatica (or some of the other kickers he was foolishly being compared to).

At the end of the day contrary to what you think you know the Patriots FO and ownership was stunned when Adam signed with Indy. Shame on them.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Your observation is a keen one.

Today, I watched both of those guys as they were out earlier than the rest.

Ghost's kicks were certainly higher than Gram's. They flew off the tee so a 6'6 guy with good leaping ability could not get his hand on one.

They were both equally accurate today from what I saw. Ghost kickoff's were a good 10 yards longer.

That is just one days observation. Tomorrow and through someone elses eyes it could be different. The only observations that really count are Sealy's and BB's.

Thanks, NUT. (I LOVE this board -- ask and you shall receive!)

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Tedy doesn't have an agent. I wonder how we ever got him signed....

Tedy represented himself (and, BTW, he *does* have an agent now). It's not quite the same thing as saying he doesn't have an agent.

It's a wonder Kraft ever gets these extensions done with Belichick considering his "lawyer" was Adam's suspended agent.

Maybe, perhaps, because Belichick is not a member of the NFL Players Association, and, therefore, not subject to the same rules? [When was the last time you heard about the coaching salary cap?]