keyshawn johnson:Matt Cassel won 11 games...

[Kimimar0]

I think we should just leave it at Matt Cassel being a good QB, he is doing a great job this year.

 

[MustaphaM0nd]

someone hit the nail on the head earlier in this thread. Manning is a great QB, but as a colts fan will be quick to remind you, he never won "because his teams had no defense."
Why? Because they devote their resources to the offensive side of the ball. Hasn't anyone thought that maybe, just maybe, Peyton Manning and a top defense CANNOT coexist?

 

[Fball]

What if you moved him to the 2001 or 1998 Colts?

They'd be a lot better, because he's a better QB now than he was then.

 

[aluminum seats]

I honestly don't get the energy expended on Brady v. Manning thing. They're obviously both great QBs, all-timers. Of course they have different teams surrounding each of them year-by-year. I think the edge goes to Brady based on their play in the postseason, where it seems that objectively Manning has not been as good as Brady. That's it.

 

[Jetssuck]

They'd be a lot better, because he's a better QB now than he was then.

Only if he can take with him Edgerrin James, Dallas Clark, and the rest of the great players that have helped Manning achieve as much as he has.

 

[Fball]

Only if he can take with him Edgerrin James, Dallas Clark, and the rest of the great players that have helped Manning achieve as much as he has.

It's silly not to give him more credit than that. If you have watched any Colts games, he's a great QB; if anything, he has been an underachiever success-wise. A QB of his caliber should have more SB's, and I'm sure he regrets that.

But it's non-sensical to pretend that he's been propped up by others; he basically runs that team...

 

[D-Money]

We need a win against Manning on sunday.I am tired of losing to these guys.Its at home.I hope our defense is aggresive and this offense clicks.Gotta run the football at them.Develop a running game.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's silly not to give him more credit than that. If you have watched any Colts games, he's a great QB; if anything, he has been an underachiever success-wise. A QB of his caliber should have more SB's, and I'm sure he regrets that.

But it's non-sensical to pretend that he's been propped up by others; he basically runs that team...

He's played with Marshall Faulk and Edgerring James at RB, Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne, and Clark and Pollard/Dilger at TE.

To say that having that talent around him hasn't been a big part of his success is naive, and what we've seen from Manning this year is evidence of that. Even though he's still got Wayne, the offense has clearly not been the same since Clark went down.

However, and somewhat to agree with your point even while disagreeing with it in sum, what's funny about the situation is that, just like Brady in 2009, Manning's current numbers are still good numbers. You're looking at the two best QBs of their era, so even their 'off' seasons are more a matter of the eye test than statistical proofs. Those who follow the respective teams can see that the QBs are not their usual stellar selves, but those who just look at records and stats would think that there was little, if anything, wrong.

 

[Jetssuck]

It's silly not to give him more credit than that. If you have watched any Colts games, he's a great QB; if anything, he has been an underachiever success-wise. A QB of his caliber should have more SB's, and I'm sure he regrets that.

But it's non-sensical to pretend that he's been propped up by others; he basically runs that team...

Not half as silly as what some say about Brady. That he only looks good because of Belichick or he only won those super bowls because he had a great defense.

I believe that Brady is better than Manning. But that doesn't mean I don't consider Manning to be one of the greatest quarterbacks ever.

 

[jmt57]

The system QB argument is absolutely demolished by two simple questions:

When was this "system" installed and why didn't it work wonders for Drew Bledsoe and the Cleveland QBs?

It just seems funny to me that the offense started working the minute Tom Brady stepped in as quarterback. Did it take Belichick one week to create this "system", in between the Jets and the Colts games in 2001? Why is it that only Tom Brady was able to take advantage of it? That's not even getting into the fact that Brady has had arguably 4 different OCs during his career in New England. It's not like the Patriots are the 80's 49ers and Belichick created a paradigm shift in offensive philosophy to suit the strenghts of his quarterback.

As I said, the Cassel argument is invalid, and this year just further demonstrates the point. He's having a very good year in Kansas City, with fewer weapons than he had here in 08. Maybe, just maybe, he is a good QB, has anyone ever thought of that? Is it that unlikely that the kid can play in the NFL?

I'll add a couple more responses to the "only a system quarterback" debate.

Those that throw out that term imply that anybody could do what Brady is doing. If that is the case, why would the Pats make Brady their highest paid player? Wouldn't it make more sense to let Hoyer or some career backup be the quarterback, and spend Brady's salary on other positions?

Second, next time someone says that to you just ask them why their team doesn't employ the same system? If it's so simple and at the same time so effective, then why isn't every team doing the same thing?


Here is what I have found: compliment Brady and somebody will say it is all Belichick; compliment Belichick and somebody will say it's all Brady. It's just the way it is, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

It could be that Keyshawn dislikes Tom Brady because near the end of the career he put out all kinds of feelers to the Patriots, BB and finally the press that he would love to join the team. He was like the kid on a cold day knocking on the screen door crying to be let in the house.

I distinctly remember BB throwing bouquets Keyshawn's way the same way he does to Ocho Cinco today.

Brady never backed up any of those sentiments and the silence was deafening. It could be that Brady nixed it when BB came to him and asked whether he'd like to have this guy as another weapon.

It's probably personal to Keyshawn.

No, that's really not the case. Since Keyshawn has been apart of Sunday Countdown, he's backed the Patriots on almost every occasion. In fact, it's one of the only franchises he actually backs.

Am I the only one still peeved over "face guarding" in an AFCCG?

You're on my ignore list as I should be on your ignore list, but the only reason why I saw this was because I usually lurk before I log in.

But to answer your question, I agree with you for the first time ever. As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as "face guarding" and I wanted to throw my controller at my TV when Phil Simms had the nerve to make that crap up.

I don't know what pisses me off more, the fact that the refs called that "penalty" or the NFL not coming out and apologizing for that atrocious call.

I'm not sure who was guarding Wayne, I think it was Hobbs, but he played perfect defense in my opinion.

 

[SVN]

He's played with Marshall Faulk and Edgerring James at RB, Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne, and Clark and Pollard/Dilger at TE.

To say that having that talent around him hasn't been a big part of his success is naive, and what we've seen from Manning this year is evidence of that. Even though he's still got Wayne, the offense has clearly not been the same since Clark went down.

However, and somewhat to agree with your point even while disagreeing with it in sum, what's funny about the situation is that, just like Brady in 2009, Manning's current numbers are still good numbers. You're looking at the two best QBs of their era, so even their 'off' seasons are more a matter of the eye test than statistical proofs. Those who follow the respective teams can see that the QBs are not their usual stellar selves, but those who just look at records and stats would think that there was little, if anything, wrong.

jamie dukes said the same thing last nite when the others were praising that manning is doing with nobodies this yr that brady has done this throught his career wheras manning has had 1st and 2nd rounders consistently around him

 

[SVN]

someone hit the nail on the head earlier in this thread. Manning is a great QB, but as a colts fan will be quick to remind you, he never won "because his teams had no defense."
Why? Because they devote their resources to the offensive side of the ball. Hasn't anyone thought that maybe, just maybe, Peyton Manning and a top defense CANNOT coexist?

this is another myth. Look at his big playoff losses. Their defenses have actually held their own. its their offense which couldnt score more than 20 odd pts max. 20-3 @ foxboro.24-21 vs steelers for e.g

 

[SVN]

I'll add a couple more responses to the "only a system quarterback" debate.

Those that throw out that term imply that anybody could do what Brady is doing. If that is the case, why would the Pats make Brady their highest paid player? Wouldn't it make more sense to let Hoyer or some career backup be the quarterback, and spend Brady's salary on other positions?

Second, next time someone says that to you just ask them why their team doesn't employ the same system? If it's so simple and at the same time so effective, then why isn't every team doing the same thing?


Here is what I have found: compliment Brady and somebody will say it is all Belichick; compliment Belichick and somebody will say it's all Brady. It's just the way it is, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

they both cancel out praise for each other. when brady went down in 2008 ,mediots - tony mazz i remember for sure- said lets see what BB can do.His record without brady is bad etc etc. when he won with cassel , then ok, brady must be average .

 

[DropKickFlutie]

As I said, the Cassel argument is invalid, and this year just further demonstrates the point. He's having a very good year in Kansas City, with fewer weapons than he had here in 08. Maybe, just maybe, he is a good QB, has anyone ever thought of that? Is it that unlikely that the kid can play in the NFL?

Through 9 games now, Matt Cassel in 2010 has thrown 16TD, 4ints, 1880 yards, with a 94.5 QB rating.
He's a top 10 QB in the league right now.

He's better than Matt Schaub, and definitely better than anyone from his draft class including Leinart and Cutler.

 

[andrewgarrr]

I'll add a couple more responses to the "only a system quarterback" debate.

Those that throw out that term imply that anybody could do what Brady is doing. If that is the case, why would the Pats make Brady their highest paid player? Wouldn't it make more sense to let Hoyer or some career backup be the quarterback, and spend Brady's salary on other positions?

Second, next time someone says that to you just ask them why their team doesn't employ the same system? If it's so simple and at the same time so effective, then why isn't every team doing the same thing?


Here is what I have found: compliment Brady and somebody will say it is all Belichick; compliment Belichick and somebody will say it's all Brady. It's just the way it is, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

Remember when there were reports flying around in 2008 that Brady would be traded and that Cassel was the future?

Those same idiots are the ones that think Brady is nothing but a product of the system. Brady has had some good offensive coaches, but does anyone in their right mind think that Josh McDaniels and Charlie Weis would not want Brady as their starting QB for their respective teams?

 

[Jackson 2]

they both cancel out praise for each other. when brady went down in 2008 ,mediots - tony mazz i remember for sure- said lets see what BB can do.His record without brady is bad etc etc. when he won with cassel , then ok, brady must be average .

Good memory. Mazz the Dope wrote a column right after Brady's knee injury which stated, in essence, that "Now, we're going to see how good BB really is as a coach." After they went 11-5, I sent TTD an e-mail suggesting that he needed to write a follow-up column addressing his point. Think the piece was ever written?