Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by TB=TD, Nov 19, 2010.
These pundits shouldn't disregard Tom Bradys whole career off of one season.
"Tom Brady is the..." - Unknown
There's another four word quote.
First of all, Cassel is a good NFL QB. Not great, but good. He has a better QB rating than Manning right now.
He inherited arguably the greatest team of all time and led'em to 11 wins against the easiest schedule in recent memory. The dropoff from 07 was incredible, and that's the year you have to compare it to, not 09 because by then the roster was very different. Using Cassel to demean Tom Brady is the worst argument ever.
Rex Grossman got to the Superbowl!
Here's a funny example of Colt fan logic. I was discussing sports with a Colt fan who pointed out without Manning, the Colts are a pretty poor team (something I readily agree with). He observed that the Pats, in contrast, did OK without Brady. (this was to shore up his argument that Manning is the GOAT and Brady is a system QB, I guess). I would have pointed out the easy schedule and "coming off 2007" thing but I wanted to keep it simple so I said we have excellent coaching and a pretty good team around Tom Brady too. He agreed our coaching/teambuilding is excellent.
Then somehow from all of this he concluded that our days of being contenders were probably over, while the Colts chances were still strong. This despite the fact that he pointed out they win maybe 4 games without Manning.
OK, maybe not all Colts fans are dumb, but this one sure was.
And TFB has won more than 110 (counting playoffs).
The system QB argument is absolutely demolished by two simple questions:
When was this "system" installed and why didn't it work wonders for Drew Bledsoe and the Cleveland QBs?
It just seems funny to me that the offense started working the minute Tom Brady stepped in as quarterback. Did it take Belichick one week to create this "system", in between the Jets and the Colts games in 2001? Why is it that only Tom Brady was able to take advantage of it? That's not even getting into the fact that Brady has had arguably 4 different OCs during his career in New England. It's not like the Patriots are the 80's 49ers and Belichick created a paradigm shift in offensive philosophy to suit the strenghts of his quarterback.
As I said, the Cassel argument is invalid, and this year just further demonstrates the point. He's having a very good year in Kansas City, with fewer weapons than he had here in 08. Maybe, just maybe, he is a good QB, has anyone ever thought of that? Is it that unlikely that the kid can play in the NFL?
I think Cassel is pretty limited as an NFL starter... the Chiefs have one of the leagues elite running games, and when they fall behind and can't run it, they get in trouble (see the Denver game last week)
But even with his limitations, he can clearly play in the league, I just don't think he will ever win a playoff game. He's kind of like late career Chad Pennington
And anyone who says Brady or Manning is a system QB is just a troll
One of the most hilarious criticisms of Brady in the Brady-Manning debate is that the gap between starter and backup has always been bigger for Manning.
Well, if the Colts didn't sign buckets of warm piss as backup quarterbacks that would not be the case. Belichick has installed Bledsoe, Testaverde, Flutie, Cassel, Hoyer etc. as backup QBs. Good players all (though the jury is out on Hoyer). That is preparation, people. It makes sense in a league where one play can take anyone out for the year.
Honestly, I think Jim Sorgi probably could of done ok for the colts. Painter is just terrible.
The "system" arguement, when refereing to Brady, is just a crutch idiots use who clearly dont like Brady and the Pats and are too dumb to realize that Brady is in fact a great QB. Simply look at all the different WR's, TE's, RB's and OC's Brady has had since taking over for Bledsoe. WR's: Brown/Patten, Branch/Givens, Caldwell/Gaffney, Moss/Welker, Welker/Tate. TE's: Rutledge, Wiggins, Graham, Fauria, Watson, Gronk, Hernandez. RB's: Smith, Dillon, Faulk, Maroney, BJGE. OC's: Weiss, O'Brien, McDaniels and a year where I think they did not have one. All those interchangeable parts, and the two consistants are Brady and the Pats success.
It could be that Keyshawn dislikes Tom Brady because near the end of the career he put out all kinds of feelers to the Patriots, BB and finally the press that he would love to join the team. He was like the kid on a cold day knocking on the screen door crying to be let in the house.
I distinctly remember BB throwing bouquets Keyshawn's way the same way he does to Ocho Cinco today.
Brady never backed up any of those sentiments and the silence was deafening. It could be that Brady nixed it when BB came to him and asked whether he'd like to have this guy as another weapon.
It's probably personal to Keyshawn.
His entire argument is apples and oranges. It's incredibly hard to honestly compare teams from different years. Each year is like a separate eco-system, with all sorts of details, permutations, etc. You can judge, pretty fairly, teams from the same year, but beyond that, to my mind, there are simply too many variables to make an honest comparison.
Folks will still do, though, but I'm not convinced that the results are in any way meaningful.
It's impossible to watch Tom Brady over the course of his career and not conclude that he is one of the all-time greats.
However, I'm sure Cassell's season will come up in future years as the Brady/Manning debates continues. To me, it's as irrelevant as trying to claim Brady has an advantage because he has 3 rings to Manning's 1. It's easy to make an argument both that Manning might have 3 rings if BB was his coach, and also easy to argue that Cassell might have gone 11-5 as the starter on last year's Colts team....
The Manning arguements have two fatal flaws:
Without Manning, the Colts can't win four games.
Well yeah, because all the drafting and money is devoted on the offense to make Manning- "Peyton". The Colts are not a team, it's an organization devoted to making Manning "great" and hope for the best.
Manning has the same OC/ coaching staff for a decade. All his weapons are signed for the benefit of Manning and Brady is the system QB?
By definition, a "system" is continuity. Give Manning a few guys off the street and he throws six picks in SD. Upset his training camp in 2008 and they are still making excuses in 2010.
Manning completely defines "system" QB. If he had the turnover the Pats had; would he be even better than Tyler Thigpen?
System QB's don't put together the greatest passing season by a QB and preside over the greatest offense to see the NFL do they KeyShawn.
I actually agree with the main point of your post, that Manning is probably closer to a system QB, especially when compared to the drastic systemic changes the Pats have undergone on offense. However, let's not degenerate Manning to edify Brady. Manning is a hell of a passer and I think he would have a Brees-like career with rapid turnover. Put Brady on another team, and he'd be great there. They're both great, but Brady is undoubtedly more accomplished.
Joe Montana = System QB
The System? WCO.
His replacement? Went on to win Super Bowls in the same system.
When Joe left the system, he sucked at KC.
(This is just another possible frame for the discussion).
I see what you're getting at, but it's a flawed argument. First, Steve Young was a pretty great QB, any way you slice it. Second, anyone who watched Montana knows he was great, and incredibly clutch. The 2-minute John Candy drive, the "Catch", playoff performance, etc. He had the skills, knew how to use his weapons & was as cool as the other side of the pillow....
And they won 16 games with Brady in 07.
That's 5 games worse with Cassel at the helm.
Separate names with a comma.