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Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by patsfan13, Jul 5, 2006.

  1. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric

    A golden oldie on J Kerry our anti war hero.

    The article was authored by: Ion Mihai Pacepa, his cridentals:was acting chief of Romania's espionage service and national-security adviser to the country's president. He is the highest-ranking intelligence officer ever to have defected from the former Soviet bloc.

    link:http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/pacepa200402260828.asp

    The author see the Anti war propaganda campaign against the US WOT and relates it to it's roots in the KGB misinformations campaigns of the 60's & 70 which Sen Kerry participated in.
  2. Blue Collar

    Blue Collar Rookie

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    The serving in the military and saying thank you does not apply to all soldiers, just one's that connect with your partisan worship?no
  3. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No being a dupe of the Solviets (at best) and throwing your fellow soldiers under the bus doesn't engender my thanks.
  4. Blue Collar

    Blue Collar Rookie

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    So you must have wildly cheered when bush did the same thing to john MCcain and max cleeland and any other soldier who wasn't as principled as as G.W.B., carry on partisan soldier, keep lockstepping in the pursuit of your truth.

    My whole family has served in the military through wwII, korea,vietnam and gulf I...Couple good friend's of mine who were vietnam veterans have mentioned some of the sh-- they witnessed or partaked in during that war.
    Best not mention that here, cuz it's deemed propaganda and therefore untrue, for those looking for their believed truth's.
  5. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    And the same could be said to you. You seem to think the only ones that matter are those who agree with you and your propaganda sites.

    But you keep fighting the good fight, ok, you are the tin foil hat warrior.
  6. Blue Collar

    Blue Collar Rookie

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    Show everyone where I have disgraced a soldier? where is that post? Right here in this thread someones attacking a soldier because he doesn't like his political views. I repeat show this board where I have attacked a soldier?
  7. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    Ah, disagree, yes you have. Never said disgraced or attacked, but that rhetoric is expected for you.
  8. Blue Collar

    Blue Collar Rookie

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    wHERE I have ever went after a soldier? politics I discuss , soldiers I never discuss, except once when patsfan13 13 asked me about murha comments on soldiers. I said murtha basicaly should shut his mouth and if these claims are untrue he should resign.You and me gripe about the politics, but I never say anything disgraceful towards any soldier even you, don't take take that as an offense , We just haggle over politics.
  9. DarrylS

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    From the Article:

    "To me, this assertion sounds exactly like the disinformation line that the Soviets were sowing worldwide throughout the Vietnam era. KGB priority number one at that time was to damage American power, judgment, and credibility. One of its favorite tools was the fabrication of such evidence as photographs and "news reports" about invented American war atrocities. These tales were purveyed in KGB-operated magazines that would then flack them to reputable news organizations. Often enough, they would be picked up. News organizations are notoriously sloppy about verifying their sources. All in all, it was amazingly easy for Soviet-bloc spy organizations to fake many such reports and spread them around the free world"

    This is an opinion, not a quote about Kerry. To me it sounds like does not directly implicate John Kerry, not that he should be defended for what he said, but this is another article that is taken out of context and run with without further examination. We do not know the atrocities of any war, and what our operatives do or do not do at any one given time. My experience as a person who watched the Viet Nam war very closely, is those who were incountry and experienced a lot of conflict don't speak much, those who were in communication tents on the beach with their "mama sans", talk a lot. Since when do we give so much credence to a "Romanian Defector" the highest ranking soviet official to defect... Romania if my history memory serves me well was guilty of its own share of atrocities within its borders.
  10. Patters

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  11. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    LOL..!! You're using Wikipedia as a reference..? The "free encyclopedia that anyone can edit"...?!? :rofl:
  12. Mainefan

    Mainefan Rookie

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    The Winter Solder investigation is very well known. It was conducted by the US Congress and it revealed actions committed by US soldiers that were exactly as Kerry described, if not worse.

    Next, you're going to be telling us that there was no such thing as My Lai, or that it was the only such incident.
  13. patsfan13

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    You seem very confused. I don't recall GWB calling McCain or Cleeland a war criminal for their actions on NAm nor do I recall Bush saying the committing war crimes was US goveremnt policy. Kerry did both of those things.

    It is also notable that th group in Europe who tracked US war crimes in Nam was funded by the KGB. Kerry was in the inactive reserve when he was involved in Winter Soldier and slandering his fellow soldiers. He wasn't a private citizen. He met with NVA reps and could have been court marshalled. He probably wasn't because of his political connections.
  14. Mainefan

    Mainefan Rookie

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    By the way, QuiGon, if you find Wikipedia in error, fix it. But make fun of it at your peril. It gets more scrutiny than anything else on the web, and by people who actually know the facts. When they disagree, and they do, the controversy is noted and explained.
  15. patsfan13

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    The salient points of the article were 1) the KGB ran disinformation campaigns about the US during the VietNam war 2) They funded many of the 'peace' groups in Europe 3) VVAW was affilated with a KGB funded group.
    4) the rhetoric used in Winter soldier was from the KGB playbook of disinformation (lies) about the US. 5) The Russian KGB head Andropov considered Winter Soldier a coup for their side.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2005
  16. patsfan13

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    Gee what credibility would the head of Rumanian Secret police who worked with Andropov and the Kgb have next to an anonomous author from Wikipedia, yeah that the ticket.
  17. Blue Collar

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    Now it's ok to pre-convict soldiers ?
  18. patsfan13

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    Who am I preconvicting? Certainly not Kerry, I would call him at best a dupe (useful idiot is I believe the Solviets used). I didn't say he was conciously working with the KGB.

    One does wonder why he won't sign a release of his military records though?
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You really should read about the Winter Soldier investigation. The typical way to challenge Kerry on this is to call into doubt the Winter Soldier investigation itself, which a number of right wingers have tried to do. But, to defend the author's ignorance by pretending Wikipedia made up the Winter Soldier investigation is bizarre. It's well known that Kerry based his accusations on testimony by scores Vietnam vets at the Winter Soldier investigation. While some of those vets may have been frauds, to my knowledge no one has charged the majority of them with that.
  20. DarrylS

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    This may or may not be true, but the faux pas of all of this is to link it to Kerry. This article and author has been discussed previously, and to just take the word of a defected Romanian KGB agent, raises doubt about his motivation. Do you think he is a tad biased?? I am not a fan of Kerry, but this looks like another swift boat effort to make these type of linkages. I have seen the link between the KGB/Russia and the Peace Movement in US, and as someone who was there never saw this.
  21. patsfan13

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    The allegations about KGB involvement in the Western amti war movement was confirmed beyond any doubt when KGB archives were opened up after the fall of the Solviet Union.
  22. Mainefan

    Mainefan Rookie

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    Re: Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric

    There's no question that the Soviets were doing their best to piggyback on the anti-war movement. But in actuality, they exercised little if any power. Anti-war sentiment was inspired by events in Vietnam, not Soviet propaganda. Like GJAJ15, I was also there and I knew quite a few people in the movement and none of them were influenced by or contacted by the KGB.

    Let's face it, widespread KGB involvement in the anti-war movement would have been a very tricky business. If their involvement became public knowledge, the movement would have split overnight. Let us not impute superhuman power to our adversaries.
  23. patsfan13

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    Re: Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric

    I would imaging that the vast majority of the supporters of the Anti war movement were unaware of KGB involvement, however many (not all) leaders of the anti war movement were aware and supportive of Solviet involvement.

    David Horowitz who has a leading radical during this period (before seeing the light) has written quite clearly on this point.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2005
  24. Mainefan

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    Re: Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric

    Sorry, Patsfan13, that doesn't jibe with my personal experience. I wasn't part of the leadership, but I knew people who were. The only people they liked less than LBJ were the Communists.

    In my opinion, serious, even partially open involvement in the anti-war movement would have been very dangerous to the Soviets. Equally dangerous, however, were accusations by the Hawks that the peace movement was Soviet inspired, led or financed. Those of us against the war knew, from an inventory of our own hearts, that we'd reached our conclusions without any outside influence.
  25. patsfan13

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    Re: Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric

    I certainly can't speak to your personal experiences or motivations. I do know that Yuri andropov and Gen Giap felt they influenced and critical help from the anti war movement. They have said so clearly.
  26. Mainefan

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    Re: Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric

    I know they've said things like that. More often, they've said that the anti-war movement was very useful to them. I'm sure it was. But it was even more useful to America and the American people. It was a very sad chapter in our history, sadder, I believe, than our involvement in Iraq.

    Today, we have good economic and trade relations with Vietnam. It is a favored tourist destination. We eat and enjoy Vietnamese food. And yet we lost the war. The irony is mind-boggling.

    My ex-wife has visited Vietnam as a tourist and she told me that she never felt more welcomed or was treated more kindly anywhere in the world--even in the war museum. The Vietnamese people seem to have an affinity for Americans. It's amazing.
  27. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric

    By the late 60s, the Soviet Communists were a joke. The remnants of the once strong American Communist Party were bureaucrats like Gus Hall, who remained bizarrely loyal to the Soviets. Sure, they gave some change to various causes, but mostly inner city civil rights type projects, not anti-war activists, who knew their phones were being tapped. You did have the odd Maoist organization, like Progressive Labor, but they were pretty insignificant. The Communists commonly took credit for things they had little to do with in order to make themselves feel relevant. I'm sure we do our best to take credit for anything good that happens in Iraq.
  28. patsfan13

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    Re: Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric


    Could I recommend Radical Son by David Horowitz someone who experienced the 60's left from the inside?

    Funny in the late 70''s the Carter malise years people thought America's time had passed, indeed many thought the Solviet Union had caught up to America in many ways.

    I do find revisonist History entertaining however.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2005
  29. wistahpatsfan

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    Re: Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric

    Sure, as long as I can recommend "Steal This Book" by Abbie Hoffman :D
    Yet another great contribution from Wistah to American culture along with barbed wire, the Pill, and diner cars ! :rocker:
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2006
  30. PatsFanInVa

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    Re: Kerry’s Soviet Rhetoric

    Question:

    Do you think Josef Stalin thought FDR were "useful" in World War II?

    "cui bono," as some wag has asked in a different context here, from the defeat of the Nazis? Well, man for man, the Soviets lost more to the Nazis than anybody else. Obviously, for Roosevelt and Churchill to fight so doggedly against the Nazis, they must have been dupes of the Kremlin.

    Are you beginning to see the logical error? If there is an outcome that is beneficial to America, it is not particularly important whether someone in Russia believed that those who brought it about were "useful" to the Kremlin.

    I do not believe America would be stronger had she continued to prop up the RVN. I am fairly certain that the Soviets made a miscalculation or two along the way, vis a vis the United States and her politics. Zero-sum thinking doomed the Kremlin to collapse; for us, it was (and is) just the engine of perpetual debtor status.

    Somebody unpopular may agree with or benefit from your stances; that does not make you their dupe. What matters is whether you and the country you love -- America -- benefit from your stances.

    I think that's a question everybody should ask, particularly in regard to our ongoing wars of occupation, and their ongoing human and financial costs. Here's a hint: Try diplomacy. As I understand it, talk is cheap ;)

    PFnV

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