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Julius Peppers proponents...a Philadelphia story

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  1. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The National Football Post | Diner Morning News: Brown’s Trade Demand
    Asante is proving to be very expensive for Philly.
  2. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't know if either reference is valid for the Patriots and Peppers situation. The Bills are notorious for not paying their top teir talent and letting them go elsewhere (Nate Clements, London Fletcher, etc.). Being a small market team, I don't think the can afford the real dollars needed in a signing bonus and subsequent roster bonuses needed to sign these players. As for the Eagles, they are in this situation because they resign their young players early (usually with 2-3 years left on their current deal) to below market deals offering them a lot of money early in their career which shortchanges them in the long run. They are the only team that I know of who do this practice on a regular basis.

    If the Pats do trade for Peppers, he probably won't get as much as he gets elsewhere. It will still be a below market deal. Even if they do, I don't think it will affect negotiations with Wilfork, Seymour, etc. as much as people want to think it will. First, if next year is an uncapped year and Kraft is willing to open his wallet, there will be no problem whatsoever. Also, since Peppers will be taking a below market deal if he is here, the other players will not be able to use it as leverage.

    With the two examples you give, there are special circumstances that contributed to the problems they have. None of those special circumstances apply to the Patriots.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2009
  3. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Not sure I undesrtand....if they pay Peppers big money..OF COURSE that will upset the pay structure teh Patriots have in place. What facts do you have that will back that up?? They do not pay players out of line...that simple. They did in Phillie and look at all the problems with OTHER players that has happened. Don't want that here...sorry. Peppers is one that always wants his large piece of the pie..NOTHING less. If it's less..he'll be grumbling about it and complaining. That is one reason I would prefer not to think of him coming here...more problems than he is worth.
  4. PatsWickedPissah

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    Box is warning of the consequences of the Pats overpaying for a glamor FA. Box did not just fall off the pumpkin truck unlike many folks; he knows that BB is too smart to overpay and therefore the likelihood of Peppers coming here at a WAY below market deal is small. The fantasy is quite unlikely.
  5. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I just wish those folks falling off the truck would watch where they land, I'm getting almost as punchy as they are. :stars2:
  6. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I never advocate way overpaying for a glamor FA. But if Belichick thinks Peppers is worth it, who are we to argue. I personally am hesitant to get Peppers because he would be switching positions, but he does have the POTENTIAL of being a stud OLB in the 3-4 (but potential is not always met and quite frequently not met).

    As for Peppers taking a below market deal, don't be shocked if he does. I heard a Panthers' beat writer on Sirius NFL radio a month or so back and he said Peppers isn't all about the money and has turned down a lot of endorsement deals. Part of the reason Peppers wants to leave Carolina is not the money, but the fact he has spent his entire life in North Carolina and wants to experience life somewhere else.

    I don't know if Belichick is going to trade for Peppers, but I still don't see the relevance of the two examples Box stated. The Colts have made many of their players the top paid players at their position and you rarely if ever hear about other players being upset with their deals. Granted I don't want Belichick to start making his team top heavy like the Colts unless there is an uncapped year.
  7. everlong

    everlong Rookie

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    If you look at the players the Patriots have brought in they fit into two groups. The Moss and Dillon group where you essentially were on a one year prove it contract then they got extended to a nice but not top of the market deal. Then there's the AD and Colvin group where they came in for a 90-95% of what they could have received elsewhere to play for a winner. None of the contacts left the Pats cap poor at any point during the deal.

    Assante for instance was signed above 100% market value. Same with Haynesworth.

    If Peppers wanted to do either one of these deals I think his deal would be accepted in the clubhouse and it wouldn't cause a long term issues resigning Wilfork and company. The issue is he wants Haynesworth coin which would cause issues in the clubhouse and would cause cap issues at some point.

    He's not walking through that door.
  8. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    Box

    Great article.

    However, I would say the "Patriot Way" helps to negate alot of those problems. When you place "value" and "team" up front, it probably eliminates a big percentage of "hurt feelings" type.

    Also, the two organizations mentioned have their oddities. Philly is known for being cheap but overpay for Samuels. The basic inconsistency of their actions drive these problems.

    We would have similiar problems today if the Pats conceded to Branch in 2006.
  9. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar Rookie

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    Isn't this area one of the reasons that Kraft and BB brought Floyd Reese into the fold? Wasn't he credited for being creative with contracts and extensions in past jobs like Tennessee?
  10. Rob0729

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    If next year is an uncapped year which looks more likely every day, the pay structure is going to be upset no matter if they trade for Peppers or not because everyone's pay structure is going to be upset with guys like Snyder overpaying for every name out there to get them in.

    Besides, i don't understand your beef when I said that if Peppers comes here it will be because he was willing to take less than what he would get elsewhere. There is my proof. So will Wilfork go to the bargaining table and say he wants to be overpaid because Peppers took a below market deal?

    Also, you don't seem to grasp Philly's problem either. Their problem is not that they overpaid for Asante. It is that they went to both Sheldon Brown and Lito Sheppard when they had multiple years left in their rookie contracts and said that they would pay them now and discount the fact that they have multiple years left on their deal in the new contract or they can wait three years and cash in then. The players took the immediate gratification. If both players waited until their final year of their contracts to get a new deal, they would have been paid far closer to what Asante got. The Eagles strategy of trying to save a buck long term by locking up their long players long before they can sniff free agency is what biting them in arse, not the Samuel contract (although that was the catalyst to expedite the issue).

    BTW, how do we know Peppers is truly about the money? He might be to stay in Carolina where he clearly doesn't want to be. He might realize that his desire to play for a 3-4 team may require him to take more of an incentive laced deal or one with hefty roster bonuses in later years because he would need to prove himself as a 3-4 OLB. Maybe he just asked for the world in Carolina because he didn't want to stay and it was a better PR move to not come to terms than try to shoot his way out of town
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2009
  11. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Are you really that naive...Nobody here makes more than Brady...it's written in the system manuel, as well it should be. And he's supposed to give up a couple of million to boot, and he always has. Nobody gets to be the highest paid player at his position, not even Brady or Seymour. He got his interim concession when he cried and finally got $10/per but only on a 3 year extension that could be prorated over 4 that included the last year of his rookie deal...so the average value of his deal dropped to $8 over 4 years.

    We have an even more special circumstance here. It's called "the system". It's underpinnings are founded on sacrifice and discipline and a slotted salary scale. Players are asked to wait their turn, take a little less, respect the fact that we can't make exceptions for a players specialness because everyone who does his job is valued here...and in order to pay fair market value across a roster with sufficient talent and depth they can win championships with elite talent that talent is asked to lead by example.

    Peppers wants to play a 3-4 OLB here. Well, that player tops out here at $8M. That player is asked to take a split signing/option bonus here (as are most who require $20M or more). Peppers wants to make the move predicated on increasing his sacks...not gonna happen here. It's not about his sacks, it's about doing what is asked of him - something he apparently bristled about in Carolina where they won't change their system or scheme to suit him. It's hard to compile the eye popping stats that land you pro bowl nods and put you on the HOF fast track here even as you appear in every other superbowl contested. Peppers didn't even play the want a ring card...because apparently self fulfillment is higher on his list of wants.

    He had his best season in 2006, not 2008, and in 2007 people were questioning his value compared to other top tier DE. Imagine how he'd deal with the fanboy and mediot finger pointing if he struggled here. Think he could take a year of criticism while he was taught the system intracacies as AD was??? He was apparently disappointed that Carolina after winning it's division got bounced in the first round of the playoffs in a game where he was essentially MIA. He's been on the market for 3 months and no one has brought his agent the kind of deal he can wave in Carolina's face and say make this happen. There has to be a reason or two for that.

    I'm sure Bill admires his talent. I'm sure Bill would be interested in at least exploring the possibility of bringing him here. But Peppers hasn't done anything over the last 3 months to facilitate even that happening. Everyone now says Carolina is hamstrung by his tag - no, they chose to hamstring themselves in March by tagging a player they had previously been unable to sign to a long term extension. They could do that because the guy they tagged last year when they couldn't get him extended (Gross) finally agreed to one himself. And for some reason they still want to retain a player who is the face of their franchise and the anchor of their defense even as he apparently doesn't want to be retained. Southern expansion team fan bases are a lot more forgiving than old school passionate NE sports fans... If he were pulling his just want a change crap here the same people who want him so desperately would be calling him a useless overpaid POS and pointing to his seasonal inconsistencies and calling for Bill to package his ass IN a trade.

    The FA ship has sailed for 2009. There is little or nothing left to be gained by Carolina trading him now unless it's for a top 5 pick or similar value (like what Denver got for Cutler) that might enable them to replace his value on the roster over the next couple of seasons. He's not worth that to this franchise.

    And as for Kraft, he didn't get where he is by opening up his wallet, he got there by making sound disciplined financial choices. He has a lot of players to deal with come the uncapped year. And a lot of long term impact decisions to factor in including negotiating for a new CBA. He's not going to morph into Dan Snyder for a season because he doesn't have his revenue stream and he knows the long term impact (on future negotiations here) would be impossible to manage. People forget he's the guy who said on national television on the very night we won our 3rd superbowl that while he hoped to get Brady extended it would NOT HAPPEN if he wanted Manning money...

    People here need to remember that sometimes when things sound too good to be true (like Peppers on the cheap in contract and compensation) it's because they aren't true. While other times when reality sounds too difficult to be overcome, that's because as Bill would say it is what it is...
  12. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Nice post. I pretty much agree with what you said.

    If Peppers wanted to come here, he could have facilitated making it happen. BUT he would have to be willing to fit into the team structure, including both the salary structure as an OLB and the role structure in terms of stats taking a back seat to success. He doesn't seem to have done anything in the 2 months since he was tagged to make that happen. Ergo, I have to believe that he isn't truly interested in coming here, whatever he says to the contrary. I don't quite understand what his game is, since he doesn't seem to be resolving a situation which he publicly claims to want out of.

    Whatever else, you are absolutely right, the Pats will not break discipline and upset their structure for Peppers or anyone else. If they can bend a little to make it fit, fine, but they won't break the mold for anyone. And they are right not to do so.
  13. Rob0729

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    First, when did I say that Peppers would make more than Brady? In fact, I said that IF Peppers comes here, it will be for a lower deal than people expect. Besides, Brady is getting a new deal from the Pats within the next year or so anyway. So a temporary trend of someone making more than Brady would be allowed and I doubt Brady would balk knowing that he will be renegotiating his deal soon.

    Also, you don't know why Peppers wants to move to a 3-4 and neither do I. I suspect it is the same reason McGinest switched from a DE to LB - moving to an upright position will cutdown on his back problems and reinvigorate and extend his career (remember that many people had written off McGinest before his switch to LB). I don't know if Peppers is all about his stat sheet, but from what I have read and heard about the guy he is a great team player.

    As for Peppers not having a deal to waive in Carolina's face, what does that really mean? Peppers has already limited the teams he is willing to go to 5 teams. That means one of those teams would have to make an offer and then be willing to give up a high draft pick or two to get him. And those teams would actually have to have a need for Peppers too boot which we don't know since the only ones we know for sure that are on that list are the Pats and the Cowboys and only one has a pressing need at OLB. Besides, trades like these usually get done right before the draft.

    As for Peppers not doing anything to facilitate the trade, how do you know that? His agent could be in Belichick's office right now for all we know. Just because he didn't sign the tender? If Peppers is worried that if he signed it that the Panthers would ship him to the highest bidder even if it is a team like Detriot, I wouldn't sign it either until I was sure that I was going to be traded to the team that I wanted to play for. I don't know if no trade clauses are legal in the NFL, but I doubt they are. Peppers may be playing hardball to put roadblocks to getting a trade done, but none of us know that for sure.

    As for Kraft not opening his wallet, yes he is making sound financial choices based on a salary cap structure. The Pats are consistently one of the biggest spenders in real dollars in the NFL year after year. That is a fact. They will be the same in an uncapped year barring the top 12 team rule. Kraft isn't afraid to spend money on this team, but he isn't willing to destroy the Pats' cap to do so like he did in the late 90s. He won't spend like Snyder would who is desperate to buy a championship, but he will spend. He has already stated that an uncapped year would give the Pats an advantage.

    I don't know if the Pats will trade for Peppers. I am leaning strongly towards no. I am just not one to totally write it off either. There was far too much smoke to think that Belichick didn't at least have a passing interest in trading for Peppers. But it could have been a passing interest and it could have already past.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2009
  14. Rob0729

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    Why is that? So they rather let Peppers stay there for a year, pocket $17 million, and leave in free agency next year (or pay him $20 million or the average of the top 5 paid players in the NFL whichever is higher to franchise him again) rather than get a lower first round pick? How does that make sense? If they don't think they can get him to sign a long term deal ever, they need to take what they can get whether it is with the Pats or someone else.

    I doubt they will get a Cutler type of trade no matter who trades for him. Cutler is a franchise QB (although I think he is overrated) in his mid 20s who has probably another 10 years of top play barring injury in a QB starved league. Peppers is a DE looking to change position pushing 30 who has had some injury problems the last few years and in the last few years of his prime. If the Panthers got the Pats 23rd pick or something equivalent, they are getting pretty much market value,
  15. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Agree Cousin, but he is severely hurting the Panthers one way or the other by not signing his tender. He has bound their hands for the whole FA season. This appears on the onset, to be some type of F.O. vendetta he has cooking? He is punishing them and he is not helping himself if he wants out. Unless someone out there can figure out what he has to gain by this play? Any people with bizzare minds out there that can answer that?

    The way to entice Peppers might be major incentives: Sacks, Interceptions, Pro Bowl selections, Playoffs and finally Super Bowl venues. Cut a realistic salary, and if he proves to the Pats, the world and himself that he can be a quality caliber OLB, his teammates here won't object to incentives because he has helped them reach their goals.

    DW Toys
  16. Wheelssps

    Wheelssps Rookie

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    Coming back to the OP's point of the danger of overpaying certain players on a roster and underpaying others, I remember BB was quite aware of that fact when they were going through contract negotiations with Adam Viniteri. In a relatively rare candid comment with the media, he made a comment to the effect that it wasn't a problem to pay Adam 3.5 million vs 2.5 million with regards to their cap situation, but that the Pats couldn't do it as it would have made him I believe the highest paid kicker as well as representing a 40% or so raise. BB then said you can't break your salary system in the short term for one player, because then everyone else wants a 40% raise, too.

    The rest of the posts so far have done a great job pointing out Pats vs Bills vs Eagles methods of business, etc, but I just thought that I'd mention the AV situation. Some of you guys probably remember the details better than me.
  17. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Good point.
    DW Toys
  18. mayoclinic

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    I agree that Peppers is hurting Carolina. He does not seem to be helping himself, however. It's not clear what his game plan is. If he really wanted out, he could be out by now. Is he just playing some petty game of spite to get back at the FO before signing the franchise sender and soaking them for $17M? That's not the kind of player we want on the Pats. His agent is free to contact teams and negotiate with them, and to present offers to the Carolina brass. BB sent a clear message a month ago that he doesn't do business that way and that if Peppers wants to get traded to the Pats he should sign his tender and let the organizations work it out. He has lots of leverage, but things haven't moved.

    IF Peppers were motivated, I'm sure the Pats could bend their structure without breaking it to make things work. I'm sure they would be willing to reach a little. But they won't break the mold, and so far Peppers has offered no hint that he is willing to play ball with anyone. It's kind of a bizarre situation.
  19. Rob0729

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    I could be wrong but I thought the problem was that the Pats refused to give Vinatieri a lot of guaranteed money because of their concerns about his age and his back which gave him problems his last year here. I thought the word was they offered to make him the highest paid kicker, but refused to guarantee much if any of the money (an about face from his previous contract where he was guaranteed every penny).
  20. Synovia

    Synovia Rookie

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    I didn't see Mike Vrable or Tedi Bruschi getting all out of shape when they gave Thomas more money than the two of them combined.

    What I have seen, is long term players who were already the top of the payscale getting upset, like Branch and Samuel, despite nobody being paid more than them.

    Some guys are going to complain about money no matter what. Brown was complaining about money before he signed his current contract.
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