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Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz last night [October 2009 thread]


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Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

Don't know, don't care. If it's all about the model, it's all about the model. They shouldn't have caved.

I'm beginning to think you enjoy these pissing matches
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

If you remember Brady signed a below value contract for a player of his status because he wanted there to be money to sign other good players which is not what happened. See my biggest beef with the Pats is when you have good young players who fit your system and you know they can play tie them a couple of years before their contract is due instead of trying to squeeze every penny out of their rookie contracts. So I'm not a cap guy but I always believe what I see with my eyes.

Thats crap.

Brady now among the NFL's highest-paid players - NFL - ESPN

I contend that he never took a below-market deal. Brady had leverage. It was well documented that Brady's guaranteed dollars were the same as Peyton Manning's. That was not a below-market deal in 2006. It may be now though.

There have been multiple instances of the Pats doing deals with players with draft picks and FAs before their time was up (Vrabel, Seymour, Warren, Koppen, etc.).

As other posters have said, you can criticize other "shoulda locked them up early" opportunties like Branch, Graham, Asante but IMO it takes two to tango, and they didn't want to. Did the Pats low-ball them? Based on what they got once they left, sure. But their proposals were based on the Pats' own value - which they have not deviated from once in 9 years.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

I'm beginning to think you enjoy these pissing matches

You're just picking that up now? :p

As long as no one starts this childish name-calling in other threads that are going on, it's fun!
 
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Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

Felger's of the opinion that the Patriots are trying to keep the actual payroll a lot lower than it appears on the cap, and that the team is looking to spend only about $100 million dollars on player salaries. He's able to pull up some data to make his point seem plausible.

Kraft and company can deny that all they want, or they can explain it a way in whatever manner suits them, but the actual dollars spent in recent years has not been "to the cap", which is what Felger is calling them out on. I'm not saying that they should be spending each and every dollar up to the cap, because I don't think it's wise to do so every season, but Felger's argument does have at least a grain of truth in it.

I may be misunderstanding your post, but the Pats have spend 'to the cap' or within a couple of mill every year. When they are a couple mill under it is for the sake of having a reserve either for transactions late in preseason or in season, that never end up happening but mist be planned for in case they materialize. In the event we have an excess, we consistently use a 'phony' bonus to push it forward.
As far as the budget of real money spent on payroll, that is very different. And it is a tricky issue too. Two teams can use up their full cap with tremendous variance in actual dollar cost. An extreme example would be (I will use 1 player to make it simple, but it can be carried across the entire roster)
Team A pays Player A a 3 year $15mill contract with no sb, and 5 mill per year salary. Cap Cost 5mill actual money cost 5mill
Team B pays Player B with a 3 year contract and 12 mill sb, then 1 mill salary each year. Cap Cost 5mill, actual money cost 13 mll.
Both teams spent 'to the 5mill cap' but team B had a much higher salary actual money expense.
Where it gets tricky is that first, a team that is heavily recruiting big time free agents has a higher salary real money expense. Is that because they are more willing to spend money, or have a less intelligent plan on acquiring players?
Secondly, as the example would indicate, in year 2 and 3, Team A actually has a higher salary expense 5mill to 1mill. And this happens in the NFL. Teams that pay large signing bonusses are less able to spend in subsequent years because they carry forward a large part of the salary expense from one year to the next on the cap.
In the long run, unless a team commits cap suicide, all teams that are spending to the cap (or very close as discussed above) are going to have almost identical salary expense on average.
A team like the Pats will have a steady consistent salary expense while a team like the Redskins will be much more volatile as the portion of the cap that is not real dollars increases and decreases based upon amortized signing bonusses.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

This is not true. They have deliberately manipulated the cap to push money into later years. That's not spending all the cap room. I'm not complaining about the maneuver, but it does need to be pointed out in response to posts such as yours. The Patriots have used gimmicks like the LBTE to play games with the so-called hard cap.

Look, Felger overlooks the notion that big numbers in actual salary paid out in one year due to bonuses and the like can mean much smaller actual salary payouts in other seasons. Having said that, his point about what the Patriots have actually spent in the past couple of years does have some merit when one takes a cursory look. I don't view it as a problem, because I don't think that a lack of spent cash is the reason that the Patriots lost the Super Bowl in 2007 or failed to make a run at it in 2008, but actual outlay vs. cap number differences is what happens when you play games, and pay players, with a 'hard' cap that can be circumvented by pro-rated bonuses, LBTEs and the like.

You are incorrect here. If they push it forward, and THEN spend it they have spent to the cap. If the Pats are 5mill under the 2006 cap then do a 5mill push forward tactic, then at the cap in 2007, they spent that same 5mill, just one year later.
The amounts in question are a very small percentage of the cap. The best explanation for doing it is not that they don't want to spend the money, but rather that they recognize the cap is a BUDGET and you need to keep a reserve for emergencies (or yet unknown opportunities, such as trades).
If they spent all of the cap during FA, they would have no room to trade after the draft. If they spent it all at cutdown, they would have no reserve for in season additions, and so forth.
If we were talking about 20mill every year, suggesting they don't want to lay out the cash is more valid than when, as has happened the excess if there is one, is roughly the cost of one addition that didn't come to pass.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

Nothing there precludes the team from spending more in actual dollars if it so chooses. In fact, the claim of a 'maximized' revenue stream gives more credence to Felger's assertion that the team should be spending more money. A more effective rebuttal would be to point out the debt service on the stadium, as one example, rather than pointing out how good the team is about bringing in money to fill its pockets above and beyond the salary cap.

How do you expect them to spend more? The 'actual dollars' are also CAP dollars, just on a different schedule.
If you have an enormous actual dollar cost this year, it can only be because you paid moeny this year that amortizes to future years. That means you have less to spend in future years.
ITs really simple math, no team can continue to have an excessive real dollar cost, because when they do so, they increase the future cap cost, which MUST involve a decrease in actual dollars spent.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

Ok, now you're putting me in a position of defending him again (albeit to a lesser extent), damn it!

Kraft himself conceded the point that there was no salary cap jail in the past 3 years because of the huge increases in the salary cap. This meant, again, that Felger was correct on a very specific and limited point, albeit only functionally so rather than absolutely so in this case. Functionally speaking, the cap has been all but non-existent as a factor over the past few seasons.

The cap increasing has given teams more flexibility and reduced the cap hell situations, but the cap still limits the amount of acquisitions that can be made. The fact that teams recevied a get out of cap jail free card doesn't mean they are not still limited in what they can spend. (Besides you can't use the argument of an owner during a labor dispute as a reasonable factual basis.)
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

You are incorrect here. If they push it forward, and THEN spend it they have spent to the cap. If the Pats are 5mill under the 2006 cap then do a 5mill push forward tactic, then at the cap in 2007, they spent that same 5mill, just one year later.
The amounts in question are a very small percentage of the cap. The best explanation for doing it is not that they don't want to spend the money, but rather that they recognize the cap is a BUDGET and you need to keep a reserve for emergencies (or yet unknown opportunities, such as trades).
If they spent all of the cap during FA, they would have no room to trade after the draft. If they spent it all at cutdown, they would have no reserve for in season additions, and so forth.
If we were talking about 20mill every year, suggesting they don't want to lay out the cash is more valid than when, as has happened the excess if there is one, is roughly the cost of one addition that didn't come to pass.

It's not incorrect. In fact, your explanation attempting to prove it wrong verifies it as correct. Here's what I wrote that you claim is incorrect:

They have deliberately manipulated the cap to push money into later years. That's not spending all the cap room.

If you push 2007 cap space into 2008, you have clearly not spent all your cap room in 2007 and have pushed it into a later year. That's done through deliberate manipulation by using such things as LBTEs.

You are essentially trying to allow for an ex post facto application to the salary cap, when that's not what's actually been done. What's been done is manipulation of the rules to allow for some of the cap that's not going to be used in one season getting pushed forward for use in another season. The team is still not using that salary cap room in the year it's designated for.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

Jonathan is a very sharp guy in his own right and is very defensive about people thinking that he just rides his dad's coat tails.

That may be true....but I would prefer if they let the football person (BB) make the football decisions.

IMO things are best suited when Bill does the grocery shopping and Robert and Jonathan worry about planning the ring ceremonies. Upgrading the video boards in the endzones at the stadium would be another nice task. A gorgeous stadium like Gillette should step into the new millenium with technology. Ok...that was a rant. Love the Krafts...and wouldn't want any other owners.
 
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Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

How do you expect them to spend more? The 'actual dollars' are also CAP dollars, just on a different schedule.
If you have an enormous actual dollar cost this year, it can only be because you paid moeny this year that amortizes to future years. That means you have less to spend in future years.
ITs really simple math, no team can continue to have an excessive real dollar cost, because when they do so, they increase the future cap cost, which MUST involve a decrease in actual dollars spent.

I'm sorry, but this equation of 'actual dollars' to CAP dollars is simply not true. Again, one need only look to LBTEs to show this.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

It's not incorrect. In fact, your explanation attempting to prove it wrong verifies it as correct. Here's what I wrote that you claim is incorrect:



If you push 2007 cap space into 2008, you have clearly not spent all your cap room in 2007 and have pushed it into a later year. That's done through deliberate manipulation by using such things as LBTEs.

You are essentially trying to allow for an ex post facto application to the salary cap, when that's not what's actually been done. What's been done is manipulation of the rules to allow for some of the cap that's not going to be used in one season getting pushed forward for use in another season. The team is still not using that salary cap room in the year it's designated for.

If I have $5 today and I spend $4 then $1 more tomorrow, I spent $5.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

The cap increasing has given teams more flexibility and reduced the cap hell situations, but the cap still limits the amount of acquisitions that can be made. The fact that teams recevied a get out of cap jail free card doesn't mean they are not still limited in what they can spend. (Besides you can't use the argument of an owner during a labor dispute as a reasonable factual basis.)

1.) The statement made by Kraft was clearly not in his interest, so why shouldn't someone use it? It would hold up as a hearsay exception in a court of law.

2.) I highlighted the difference between functional and absolute, so I don't know why you feel a need to go down this road. As the team's owner himself admitted in a radio interview, there has not been an issue with regards to salaries and 'cap jail' for the past three years. That means, in functional terms, that the cap has not been an issue in that time. As I noted, Felger's assertion about the cap during that time is not an accurate claim in absolute terms.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

If I have $5 today and I spend $4 then $1 more tomorrow, I spent $5.

You spent $4 today.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

I'm sorry, but this equation of 'actual dollars' to CAP dollars is simply not true. Again, one need only look to LBTEs to show this.

Thats a lame respone. The LTBE bonusses are a minute part of the cap.
Actual dollars spent includes both cap dollars and dollars amortized to the future. If you spend excessively in actual dollars this year, you had to have paid excessive signing bonusses, otherwise you couldn't spend excessively. That means you have increased the cap cost in future years, which limits your abilty to spend actual dollars.
That is why over time NFL teams spend a roughly equal amount in actual costs, with teams that believe in hitting it big in free agency having large swings and teams that stress prudence in decision making and spending having a more consistent level year to year.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

You spent $4 today.

But I still spent my $5. You are saying that I spent less than the guy who spent $5 today, by shortsightedly ignoring all of the facts.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

1.) The statement made by Kraft was clearly not in his interest, so why shouldn't someone use it? It would hold up as a hearsay exception in a court of law.

2.) I highlighted the difference between functional and absolute, so I don't know why you feel a need to go down this road. As the team's owner himself admitted in a radio interview, there has not been an issue with regards to salaries and 'cap jail' for the past three years. That means, in functional terms, that the cap has not been an issue in that time. As I noted, Felger's assertion about the cap during that time is not an accurate claim in absolute terms.

You can't really tell me that an owner discussing how drastically payroll has risen recently during the middle of a labor dispute can be taken as a fact.

The cap is THE constraint on player acquisitions. Just because it has risen does not mean that the principles of cap management no longer apply. The fact that teams who mortgaged their future got a save does not equal a conclusion that the cap isnt an issue.
It is not an issue in widespread cutting of players to get under the cap.
It is certainly an issue in budgetting and limitiming the expense of player acquisition.
Could the Patriots have signed the top 8 FAs this summer? Of course not. Why not? Because the cap prevented it.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

But I still spent my $5. You are saying that I spent less than the guy who spent $5 today, by shortsightedly ignoring all of the facts.

No, I'm saying what I said. It's really very clear. You're trying to claim that spending money in 2008 should count as money spent in 2007. That's simply not the case. The cap for 2008 becomes larger because the cap for 2007 was deliberately diminished through the manipulation of the system. The actual, "adjusted" cap is not a uniform amount from year to year, and it's not even a uniform for every team in a given season.

You're simply arguing to no purpose here. My post was not incorrect, and I wasn't ignoring any 'facts', since you didn't really present any.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

Thats a lame respone. The LTBE bonusses are a minute part of the cap.
Actual dollars spent includes both cap dollars and dollars amortized to the future. If you spend excessively in actual dollars this year, you had to have paid excessive signing bonusses, otherwise you couldn't spend excessively. That means you have increased the cap cost in future years, which limits your abilty to spend actual dollars.
That is why over time NFL teams spend a roughly equal amount in actual costs, with teams that believe in hitting it big in free agency having large swings and teams that stress prudence in decision making and spending having a more consistent level year to year.

I used LBTE bonuses as an easy example, since I've mentioned them many times throughout this thread. As for the rest, feel free to pull up the data from all teams and verify that. I suspect you'll find that you're quite wrong, unless you use the term "roughly" quite loosely.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

NFL.com Blogs Blog Archive Moneyball, NFL style

The Patriots were 'only' 10th in the league in actual spending from 2004-2008, and they spent more than $50 million less than the Cowboys did during that time. Again, Felger's argument has merit if you are looking at spent money.

No team spends every dollar. There's room to spend more, if the team chooses to do so. The salary ceiling is not identical to the salary floor. People here need to stop being so knee jerk in their defense of all aspects of this team.

There are valid responses to Felger's argument, such as noting this article:

NFL.com Blogs Blog Archive More Moneyball (the economics of wins and losses)

and those arguments don't have to pretend that the Patriots are spending money left, right and center when they aren't. They are up near the top, and they don't play on the cheap. Fans don't need to defend that by pretending they pay out more than they do when we've seen the Yankees fail all decade (to date) to buy a championship, because money spent is only part of the equation.

Every dollar spent must be included in the cap.
All this article shows is:
1) Some teams spend to the cap, some do not. The Patriots spend to the cap, with the exception of some seasons having money left over in the emergency fund that gets spent next year.
2) Some teams were carrying forward large amounts of yet to be amortized expesnes into 2004, and some we carrying small amounts.
3) Some teams have significantly more dollars tied up in their future cap cost. The Cowboys either have $50,000,000 more in future cap hits from signing bonus amortization in 2009 and beyond than the Pats, or had $50,000,000 less when 2004 started, or miore likely a combination of the 2.

It is mathematically impossible for 2 teams to both spend the same cap amount and have different real money expeditures OVER TIME. You can pick and choose a time period that will make that seem incorrect, but that is smply because picking a timeframe allows you to pretend that all teams started 2004 on equal footing of cap space committed to and enter 2009 on equal footing. That simply isnt the case.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

No, I'm saying what I said. It's really very clear. You're trying to claim that spending money in 2008 should count as money spent in 2007. That's simply not the case. The cap for 2008 becomes larger because the cap for 2007 was deliberately diminished through the manipulation of the system. The actual, "adjusted" cap is not a uniform amount from year to year, and it's not even a uniform for every team in a given season.

You're simply arguing to no purpose here. My post was not incorrect, and I wasn't ignoring any 'facts', since you didn't really present any.

No I am saying that money spent is money spent. You are saying that if I choose to save it to spend later it disappeared.
 
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