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Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz last night [October 2009 thread]


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Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

This is not true. They have deliberately manipulated the cap to push money into later years. That's not spending all the cap room. I'm not complaining about the maneuver, but it does need to be pointed out in response to posts such as yours. The Patriots have used gimmicks like the LBTE to play games with the so-called hard cap.

Look, Felger overlooks the notion that big numbers in actual salary paid out in one year due to bonuses and the like can mean much smaller actual salary payouts in other seasons. Having said that, his point about what the Patriots have actually spent in the past couple of years does have some merit when one takes a cursory look. I don't view it as a problem, because I don't think that a lack of spent cash is the reason that the Patriots lost the Super Bowl in 2007 or failed to make a run at it in 2008, but actual outlay vs. cap number differences is what happens when you play games, and pay players, with a 'hard' cap that can be circumvented by pro-rated bonuses, LBTEs and the like.

You might be correct if the money NOT spent represented anything other than small change. But it is small change. NO team spends down to the penny, but a few million one way of the other is simply one or two percent of the cap, and transaction change. Frankly, you can't expect to buy very much with a single extra million.

Felger's thesis is that you can "Go for it", and overspend in any one year; He is certainly correct. But then have to pay it back in another year.

The present Patriots ownership have said it explicitly several times. It is their Corporate POLICY that they want to be competitive and a contender EVERY year. That precludes "Go for It," years.:cool:
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

No, you really don't. Felger's argument is about the recent years. He's not talking about what happened in 2003.

You can't look at the years alone. If you spent a lot in years prior, then that is accounted for in the following years. Thus, you don't have as much cap room in the present because you spend more in the past. If the Pats had a lot of allocated bonus money in those years, then they had less cap room and less to spend. You can't look at those years without looking at the years prior and after.

This is misleading, because it's only partially accurate. The cap is an accounting number, nothing more. Some teams end up nowhere near that theoretical ceiling, some come up near it, and some use loopholes to get around it.

There are no "loopholes". The cap is a hard number every year. Every team has the same amount, the only difference being it is adjusted each year for incentives and estimates from the prior year.

What teams can do is play games on when the numbers hit the books. If you pay out a large signing bonus which is spread into future years, you are using that future cap space in the present. That allows you to spend more now, but means you have less space available in the future. It is like a credit card.

The cap is accounted for using the same method for all teams. It is a hard cap. You can play games in the short-term, but you can't get around it in the long-term.

That's clearly not correct for the years 2004-2008. If you have the data on the earlier years, please provide it. However, they are also clearly not "spending to the cap" in terms of actual dollars spent.

You are confusing cash and cap. In the long-term, they have spent to the cap. For instance, per the USA Today, the Pats spend the second most in the NFL in 2007, $117,963,182. They spent over the cap that year, but some of that money hits the cap in future years.

The Patriots have never lost cap room. By the end of the year it was all accounted for or it was carried over into the following year via the incentive adjustment process. All the cap room is used, what changes is when it is used and how it is used. I would argue the Pats have done a good job with the when and how, given their success.

Also, keep in mind when Belichick took over in 2000 the Pats were in poor cap shape. they had spent over the cap in years prior, and had amortized dollars eating up cap space. He deserves a lot of credit for resolving that while still winning.

I mentioned elevated spending in some years as opposed to others. However, as the data shows, it certainly hasn't 'averaged' out over 4 years, given that the Patriots have spent more than $50 million less than the Cowboys during that period of time, and are only 10th in committed money, behind teams like the Panthers, Colts and Steelers.

Again, you can't look at those years without looking at the years before and after. If the Pats already had a lot of amortized dollars on their cap from prior years, it gives them less dollars to spend now. You can restructure to create space, but eventually that money has to hit the cap.

In theory, you could restructure every contract on the team down to minimum salary (assuming the CBA was extended) and make up the difference in signing bonus. That would create more room to go out and spend additional money. However, that money is being pushed into the future and will eventually have to be counted. There is no "loophole" for that.

Because of the great growth in the cap the last 3 years, teams haven't had a problem creating space. However, that won't happen forever. When the cap growth slows, like it did prior to the last 3 years, you will see teams in the same predicament as teams like SF and Ten were a few years ago, where they had promised so much future cap space they had to have a year or two of playing mostly low-salary young players.

Miguel would probably be able to do a better job explaining this.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

You might be correct if the money NOT spent represented anything other than small change. But it is small change. NO team spends down to the penny, but a few million one way of the other is simply one or two percent of the cap, and transaction change. Frankly, you can't expect to buy very much with a single extra million.

Felger's thesis is that you can "Go for it", and overspend in any one year; He is certainly correct. But then have to pay it back in another year.

The present Patriots ownership have said it explicitly several times. It is their Corporate POLICY that they want to be competitive and a contender EVERY year. That precludes "Go for It," years.:cool:

50 million dollars is not small change. From 2004-2008, that's $10 million a year on average. In other words, that's Randy Moss and a little bit leftover.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

50 million dollars is not small change. From 2004-2008, that's $10 million a year on average. In other words, that's Randy Moss and a little bit leftover.

You are cherry-picking a range of years. Look at the USA Database numbers.

In 2000 (26th) and 2001 (30th), Dallas was in the lower end of actual cash spent in the NFL. They were paying for money promised in earier years.

In 2002 (9th) and 2003 (10th), Jerry had more money to spend and did so.

In 2004 (31st) he paid for some past sins again. His payrolls was very low that year, only about $65.4M.

Because of that, he was more flush with cash. Since then, he spent the 15th most cash (2005), 3rd (2006), 6th (2007) and 2nd (2008). You can pick a range of years, but you need to look as see when it was spent.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

You can't look at the years alone. If you spent a lot in years prior, then that is accounted for in the following years. Thus, you don't have as much cap room in the present because you spend more in the past. If the Pats had a lot of allocated bonus money in those years, then they had less cap room and less to spend. You can't look at those years without looking at the years prior and after.

Of course you can look at the years alone. To claim otherwise is absolutely ridiculous. Hell, the league looks at the salary cap on a single season basis, yet you're trying to claim that outside observers can't do a similar thing wit the cap v. committed money? Come on. You, personally, may not like his take, but your response here is far weaker than his original assertion.

There are no "loopholes". The cap is a hard number every year. Every team has the same amount, the only difference being it is adjusted each year for incentives and estimates from the prior year.

What teams can do is play games on when the numbers hit the books. If you pay out a large signing bonus which is spread into future years, you are using that future cap space in the present. That allows you to spend more now, but means you have less space available in the future. It is like a credit card.

The cap is accounted for using the same method for all teams. It is a hard cap. You can play games in the short-term, but you can't get around it in the long-term.

Of course there are loopholes. LBTE is just one example.

You are confusing cash and cap. In the long-term, they have spent to the cap. For instance, per the USA Today, the Pats spend the second most in the NFL in 2007, $117,963,182. They spent over the cap that year, but some of that money hits the cap in future years.

The Patriots have never lost cap room. By the end of the year it was all accounted for or it was carried over into the following year via the incentive adjustment process. All the cap room is used, what changes is when it is used and how it is used. I would argue the Pats have done a good job with the when and how, given their success.

I'm not confusing anything. You are taking a simple fact put forth by Felger and going through all manner of contortions trying to defend that which is both indefensible on point and not really in need of defending in general.

Also, keep in mind when Belichick took over in 2000 the Pats were in poor cap shape. they had spent over the cap in years prior, and had amortized dollars eating up cap space. He deserves a lot of credit for resolving that while still winning.

So give Belichick a cookie, but this has nothing to do with Felger's point.



Again, you can't look at those years without looking at the years before and after. If the Pats already had a lot of amortized dollars on their cap from prior years, it gives them less dollars to spend now. You can restructure to create space, but eventually that money has to hit the cap.

In theory, you could restructure every contract on the team down to minimum salary (assuming the CBA was extended) and make up the difference in signing bonus. That would create more room to go out and spend additional money. However, that money is being pushed into the future and will eventually have to be counted. There is no "loophole" for that.

Because of the great growth in the cap the last 3 years, teams haven't had a problem creating space. However, that won't happen forever. When the cap growth slows, like it did prior to the last 3 years, you will see teams in the same predicament as teams like SF and Ten were a few years ago, where they had promised so much future cap space they had to have a year or two of playing mostly low-salary young players.

Miguel would probably be able to do a better job explaining this.

Try reading your first two paragraphs and then reconciling them with the first sentence of paragraph 3. You really can't.

As for Miguel, I love his work, but I don't need an explanation. Felger was absolutely correct in his basic assertion. The defense here isn't that Felger was wrong. The defense is that the money spent has not been the problem, as 16-0 followed by 11-5 without Brady demonstrates pretty damned well.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

No, you really don't. Felger's argument is about the recent years. He's not talking about what happened in 2003.



This is misleading, because it's only partially accurate. The cap is an accounting number, nothing more. Some teams end up nowhere near that theoretical ceiling, some come up near it, and some use loopholes to get around it.



That's clearly not correct for the years 2004-2008. If you have the data on the earlier years, please provide it. However, they are also clearly not "spending to the cap" in terms of actual dollars spent.



It's not my criticism. I don't care if they've spent $100 million or $200 million. I care that they've fielded a team that's been capable of winning the Super Bowl pretty much every season since 2001. Unless you want to count Seymour as a 2009 salary issue, I don't really give a damn about the team's manipulation of cap money v. committed money. It was Felger v. Kraft, not Deus v. Kraft. I'm simply noting that Felger's assertion does, in fact, have merit if you're looking at it strictly from a 'spent money' angle.



I mentioned elevated spending in some years as opposed to others. However, as the data shows, it certainly hasn't 'averaged' out over 4 years, given that the Patriots have spent more than $50 million less than the Cowboys during that period of time, and are only 10th in committed money, behind teams like the Panthers, Colts and Steelers.

I can't believe you are foolishly defending Felger's position. There is no merit in his argument UNLESS you believe that winning in the short term at the expense of long term success is a good stategy.

We can debate that, but you can't debate the fact that all teams spend to the cap unless they choose not to carry forward unused cap space from one year to another. What year they actually spend the money in is totally irrelevant in the discussion of if the spend to the cap.

If you feel Felger is right that they should spend more, then you support the credit card spending strategies of some other teams... teams which have temporarily avoided salary cap hell by consecutive years of large cap increases... something that will not continue in 2010 and cannot continue indefinitely. As suggested already, the only other "out" for these teams is if there is no cap. You want the Patriots to go "all in" on that gamble?

The Patriots have managed their money wisely, spending to the cap without forfeiting long term cap room and Felger is a total ignorant baffoon who siezes on numbers he doesn't care to understand and beats JK over the head with them in an attempt to grandstand for loud minority of ignorant fans who adore him. Controversy sells. Reasoned debate does not.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

You are cherry-picking a range of years. Look at the USA Database numbers.

In 2000 (26th) and 2001 (30th), Dallas was in the lower end of actual cash spent in the NFL. They were paying for money promised in earier years.

In 2002 (9th) and 2003 (10th), Jerry had more money to spend and did so.

In 2004 (31st) he paid for some past sins again. His payrolls was very low that year, only about $65.4M.

Because of that, he was more flush with cash. Since then, he spent the 15th most cash (2005), 3rd (2006), 6th (2007) and 2nd (2008). You can pick a range of years, but you need to look as see when it was spent.

I'm not cherry picking anything. The year range is from the article, and Felger is talking about just the past few years. I didn't set the parameters in either instance.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

I can't believe you are foolishly defending Felger's position. There is no merit in his argument UNLESS you believe that winning in the short term at the expense of long term success is a good stategy.

We can debate that, but you can't debate the fact that all teams spend to the cap unless they choose not to carry forward unused cap space from one year to another. What year they actually spend the money in is totally irrelevant in the discussion of if the spend to the cap.

If you feel Felger is right that they should spend more, then you support the credit card spending strategies of some other teams... teams which have temporarily avoided salary cap hell by consecutive years of large cap increases... something that will not continue in 2010 and cannot continue indefinitely. As suggested already, the only other "out" for these teams is if there is no cap. You want the Patriots to go "all in" on that gamble?

The Patriots have managed their money wisely, spending to the cap without forfeiting long term cap room and Felger is a total ignorant baffoon who siezes on numbers he doesn't care to understand and beats JK over the head with them in an attempt to grandstand for loud minority of ignorant fans who adore him. Controversy sells. Reasoned debate does not.

You have apparently misread my posts in this thread.
 
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Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

Of course there are loopholes. LBTE is just one example.

That isn't a cash thing, it is a cap thing. In the end, what is actually spent is what counts toward the cap. If you use incentives, they will be adjusted each year. In a single year you can use incentives to create room, but if the actual cash is paid out it is going to come off the following year's cap.

If you spend money on players, it will count towards the cap. That is the same for every team.

I'm not confusing anything. You are taking a simple fact put forth by Felger and going through all manner of contortions trying to defend that which is both indefensible on point and not really in need of defending in general.

Felger didn't know what he was talking about. You can't "create" cap room. You can borrow from future years to spend now, but if you spend the money it will have to be accounted for on the cap.

At the end of the day, when the Pats cash spent is accounted for, they spend all their cap dollars. The only difference between what they spend and what other teams spend is when it is spent. They manage it to be successful for the long-term, and lo-and-behold they are. Go figure.

Try reading your first two paragraphs and then reconciling them with the first sentence of paragraph 3. You really can't.

As for Miguel, I love his work, but I don't need an explanation. Felger was absolutely correct in his basic assertion. The defense here isn't that Felger was wrong. The defense is that the money spent has not been the problem, as 16-0 followed by 11-5 without Brady demonstrates pretty damned well.

Felger is wrong if he thinks they can "create" cap room. They can borrow from the future, but if they spend it they have to account for it at some point.

Every team has the same amount of cap room to use. The Pats spend all their cap room and have since Bob Kraft took the team. That is an undeniable fact. You can't say they don't spend to the cap, you can only argue about when they spend it.

You can argue they should employ a different cap philosophy, say they should go for it and borrow their future cap dollars now. However, that isn't what they do. Given their success relative to other teams, you can make a strong argument they manage their cap space well.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

Of course you can look at the years alone. To claim otherwise is absolutely ridiculous. Hell, the league looks at the salary cap on a single season basis, yet you're trying to claim that outside observers can't do a similar thing wit the cap v. committed money? Come on. You, personally, may not like his take, but your response here is far weaker than his original assertion.

Sure, and I can increase my spending potential over my salary this year by charging $20,000 on a credit card. However, I still have to pay back that $20,000 eventually. Likewise, if the Patriots pulled a Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder and spend $50M over the cap in the next five years (assuming there is still a cap), they will have to spend $50M LESS than the cap as some point to make up for it.

Looking at 1 year or even just a handful of years and saying that they do not spend to the cap is incorrect.


As for Miguel, I love his work, but I don't need an explanation. Felger was absolutely correct in his basic assertion.

No he wasn't. The Pats spend to the cap. He was wrong. period.

Like Felger, you don't care to understand the facts. You just want to sieze onto what you believe (or Felger believes) and beat everyone over the head with it.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

No, you really don't. Felger's argument is about the recent years. He's not talking about what happened in 2003.



This is misleading, because it's only partially accurate. The cap is an accounting number, nothing more. Some teams end up nowhere near that theoretical ceiling, some come up near it, and some use loopholes to get around it.



That's clearly not correct for the years 2004-2008. If you have the data on the earlier years, please provide it. However, they are also clearly not "spending to the cap" in terms of actual dollars spent.



It's not my criticism. I don't care if they've spent $100 million or $200 million. I care that they've fielded a team that's been capable of winning the Super Bowl pretty much every season since 2001. Unless you want to count Seymour as a 2009 salary issue, I don't really give a damn about the team's manipulation of cap money v. committed money. It was Felger v. Kraft, not Deus v. Kraft. I'm simply noting that Felger's assertion does, in fact, have merit if you're looking at it strictly from a 'spent money' angle.



I mentioned elevated spending in some years as opposed to others. However, as the data shows, it certainly hasn't 'averaged' out over 4 years, given that the Patriots have spent more than $50 million less than the Cowboys during that period of time, and are only 10th in committed money, behind teams like the Panthers, Colts and Steelers.

Actual NEP League
Spending vs. Cap # by year

92.7 ........ 116.7 ..... 2008
117.9 ...... 109.1 ...... 2007
105.1 ...... 102 ......... 2006
94.4 .......... 85.5 ..... 2005
77 ............ 80.5 ...... 2004
82 ............ 75 ......... 2003
46 ............ 71.1 ...... 2002
65.7 ......... 67.4 ....... 2001
51............ 62.2 ....... 2000

As to our actual adjusted cap position, we were right at or over the cap and had to wiggle for space before 2005. Thereafter we rolled excess cap over at the end of the season, although it was never more than a few million even after the cap jumped dramatically in 2006, and we never sat on and rolled over double digit excess as some teams routinely did. Although you could probably say we are guilty of not spending just for spending sake...wisely in hindsight.

BTW the new ownership financed stadium opened in 2002. Prior to that the team was in a cash as well as cap crunch/mess (as a result of several bad contracts and personnel decisions made in and on the heels of the Parcell's era). Particularly compared to franchises like, say, the Redskins who opened a 91,000 seat facility just two years before Snyder bought them in 1999 and started spending cash over cap money like a drunken sailor to no avail.

BTW Felger doesn't seem to want to revisit the Kraft interview today which is probably just as well because unless he has someone opposite him like Holley who would challenge his blather it wouldn't change the hit and run perception he lives to perpetuate.
 
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Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

I'm not cherry picking anything. The year range is from the article, and Felger is talking about just the past few years. I didn't set the parameters in either instance.

But if you are arguing the cap, you have to look at the years before and after. The cap is an accounting method, not cash spent. Thus, the cap includes money on the books already spent in the past, as well as money allocated into the future. You can't talk about the cap room available without looking at those numbers, because they effect how much cap room is available.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

I don't know why I have to repeat this, but I'm not saying that I agree with where Felger is going with his argument. I'm simply noting the obvious: he's right on his point, when you look only at his point. The team has clearly not spent the money, in terms of actual, committed money. The data is there, as was pointed out in the article I posted. Taking that and framing it as the reason the team hasn't won Super Bowls, however is wrong and where Felger goes off the rails, as 16-0, etc... demonstrates quite well, in my opinion.

There's no need to defend the Patriots on this issue by claiming that Felger's initial, targeted, assertion is incorrect when it's not, yet people here are firing off knee jerk responses about it anyway. As I pointed out earlier, the Yankees spend more money than any other team in Baseball, yet they've not won the World Series this decade.
 
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Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

But if you are arguing the cap, you have to look at the years before and after. The cap is an accounting method, not cash spent. Thus, the cap includes money on the books already spent in the past, as well as money allocated into the future. You can't talk about the cap room available without looking at those numbers, because they effect how much cap room is available.

The fact that the salary cap is just an accounting number is what I've been saying.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

And as it stands today we are by Miguel's best guesstimates just $2.7M under our adjusted 2009 cap. With 9 games remaining in the season and potentially a couple of additional or ultimately unrecovered injuries to account for or extensions to hammer out prior to the end of December deadline.

Cheap bastids...
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

Exactly...

IMO. Felger took the wrong approach with Kraft.

If he simply asked, "Jonathan, help me understand something. Every team can spend to the cap. Right? But according to XYZ.com, since 2003, the Pats have spent $50m less than the Cowboys. It seems to me that the Pats are 100% times better than the Cowboys when it comes to judging talent, coaching, etc. you would want to do more. Plus accoording to Forbes, you are in the top 5 in revenues, debt-to-equity ratio, operating income, etc which tells me the team is in outstanding financial health which makes me think you can go after better players. Why is that the case?" (and then he shuts up and listens to Kraft)

That would require that Felger actually have more functioning neurons in his cerebrum than in his more reptilian brainstem. . . . :rolleyes:
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

The fact that the salary cap is just an accounting number is what I've been saying.

It is a hard accounting number. If you spend the money, it has to be accounted for. The only thing a team controls is when and how.

Where Felger is wrong is saying the Pats aren't spending to the cap. They are. They have never had a cap dollar go unused. They may carry it over into future years, but they don't let them go to waste. You can't "create" additional cap room. The cap is a hard number. You can borrow against future years, but in that case you will be reducing the available cap room from those years. Teams have to balance that off, and the Pats manage theirs for the long-term.

Again, the Pats use all their cap room. If your argument is the Pats should borrow more and spend agressively, then that is a philosophical issue. What we do know is they have been very successful with the philosophy they use, so why change?
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

The fact that the salary cap is just an accounting number is what I've been saying.

I've read what you wrote and I understand your difference vs Felgie.

Despite the (Thank You rpbertweathers) reference to Miguel's excellent FAQ, I am still stymied as to how the supposed $50M cash to players shortfall over the years is classified in a FOOTBALL related accounting sense, given that cap accounting spending is close to max.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

And as it stands today we are by Miguel's best guesstimates just $2.7M under our adjusted 2009 cap. With 9 games remaining in the season and potentially a couple of additional or ultimately unrecovered injuries to account for or extensions to hammer out prior to the end of December deadline.

Cheap bastids...

Also, some of that $2.7M may be lost to incentives. When they do the incentive adjustment, that might eat it up. If the incentives go over that, it will take away from next year. If they are less, they will carry over the difference.

Either way, they spend to the cap.
 
Re: Jonathan Kraft On Felger and Mazz Last Night

I've read what you wrote and I understand your difference vs Felgie.

Despite the (Thank You rpbertweathers) reference to Miguel's excellent FAQ, I am still stymied as to how the supposed $50M cash to players shortfall over the years is classified in a FOOTBALL related accounting sense, given that cap accounting spending is close to max.

The $50M is a cash number. How much of that $50M is spread into the future? How much of the available cap room was spent in years prior?

The difference between actual cash and cap space can vary a great deal over a few years, but in the long-term in all will even out?
 
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