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John Elway doesn't impress me as a GM


I agree with the OP, he lays out thoughts I've had about Elway myself. Elway's approach seems a bit "Snyder-esque" toward collecting impressive parts vs. building a team with impressive chemistry. But where that team REALLY fails is having John Fox as head coach -- a used car salesman of a personality riding the coattails of Manning while Del Rio runs the defense. When Manning leaves that house of cards is going to crumble fast.
 
I think the jury is still out on Elway in a lot of ways. Most of his homegrown studs (the two Thomases, Von Miller, Ryan Clady) were drafted before he got there. He was lucky that Manning was available because HOF QBs don't usually hit the open market and I am not sure where the Broncos would be without him. Welker also fell on his lap too.

We will start to see this year how good he is. I think they will need to rely on their defense more this upcoming season with Manning and Welker another year older.

I am still wonder if Sanders is a good fit for them (even though people just assume he is going to be a 1,000 yard receiver now) just because Manning used both Demariyus Thomas' and Eric Decker's height and leaping ability a lot to pass balls over defenders. I think part of the reason they struggled against Seattle in the Super Bowl is because they have tall DBs who you can't just pass over their heads (and why Belichick got Browner). Sanders isn't going to win a lot of jump balls outside like Decker did last year.
 
I would think Elway, of all people, would know what a team needs when you have a very limited shelf life of one of the all time great QBs. He's in a win now mode because Manning has 1-2 good years left (probably not more).

Has he mortgaged the future? Possibly, but time will tell and the cap will continue to go up. so, it may not be as bad as it sounds and some of the contract details makes it sound like they are trying to be fiscally responsible by limiting some of the long term effects if it doesn't work out.

He who laughs last laughs loudest, right?
He who laughs last, thinks slowest...
 
Having flashbacks.

Peyton and the Colts are going to cap hell and will never win a Super Bowl.

Now it is Peyton and the Broncos.

I was flamed and had my Patriots fan loyalty questioned when I argue that the Colts were not going to cap hell and could win a Super Bowl under their style of cap management.

Am a lot older now so I am not going to put myself through getting attacked by fellow Patriots fans once again.

I will just ask those who predict cap hell for the Broncos
» Over the Cap- Denver Broncos 2015 Salary Cap and Contracts
» Over the Cap- Denver Broncos 2016 Salary Cap and Contracts
» Over the Cap- Denver Broncos 2017 Salary Cap and Contracts

to look at the prorated signing bonus amounts in the above 3 links
and tell us why you think that the Broncos are going to cap hell.

Because those 3 tables tell me that the Broncos are signing players to contracts that they can easily get out without creating a lot of dead money on their cap.

and then look at
» Over the Cap- New England Patriots 2015 Salary Cap and Contracts
» Over the Cap- New England Patriots 2016 Salary Cap and Contracts
» Over the Cap- New England Patriots 2017 Salary Cap and Contracts
for the Patriots and be consistent with your Broncos reasoning and apply it to the Patriots and tell us do you think that the Patriots are going to cap hell.

For the record, I do not think that either team are going to cap hell.
 
We can talk luck all day long, pats were lucky a 6th round skinny kid turned into a HOF QB. If revis leaves next year the secondary will be back to its crappy self, if wilfork leaves and we have a hole and no one to fill it what has BB done to fix it, so far nothing, we don't have a legitimate #1 receiver and until last years rookies prove they can last a season I'm not holding my breath.

BB can't seem to hire a decent second TE.

I don't know why your bashing on elway, the reason manning went to Denver was because of elway, it is also the reason Talib, ware and others want to be there because he has put together a SB team.

It is so funny because most people here have asked for BB to do the same thing for the pats and now that elway is doing it we think it is bad...come on...ultimate two face.

Whatever but folks should worry more about the pats than Denver, we still don't have bodies to fill the holes on offense. TE. And WR. O line etc. again I'm a life long pats plan but I know the pats are not as talented a team as Denver,
 
We can talk luck all day long, pats were lucky a 6th round skinny kid turned into a HOF QB. If revis leaves next year the secondary will be back to its crappy self, if wilfork leaves and we have a hole and no one to fill it what has BB done to fix it, so far nothing, we don't have a legitimate #1 receiver and until last years rookies prove they can last a season I'm not holding my breath.

BB can't seem to hire a decent second TE.

I don't know why your bashing on elway, the reason manning went to Denver was because of elway, it is also the reason Talib, ware and others want to be there because he has put together a SB team.

It is so funny because most people here have asked for BB to do the same thing for the pats and now that elway is doing it we think it is bad...come on...ultimate two face.

Whatever but folks should worry more about the pats than Denver, we still don't have bodies to fill the holes on offense. TE. And WR. O line etc. again I'm a life long pats plan but I know the pats are not as talented a team as Denver,

Belichick was lucky to get Brady in the sixth, but they did win their first Super Bowl before Brady was Brady.
 
We can talk luck all day long, pats were lucky a 6th round skinny kid turned into a HOF QB. If revis leaves next year the secondary will be back to its crappy self, if wilfork leaves and we have a hole and no one to fill it what has BB done to fix it, so far nothing, we don't have a legitimate #1 receiver and until last years rookies prove they can last a season I'm not holding my breath.

BB can't seem to hire a decent second TE.

I don't know why your bashing on elway, the reason manning went to Denver was because of elway, it is also the reason Talib, ware and others want to be there because he has put together a SB team.

It is so funny because most people here have asked for BB to do the same thing for the pats and now that elway is doing it we think it is bad...come on...ultimate two face.

Whatever but folks should worry more about the pats than Denver, we still don't have bodies to fill the holes on offense. TE. And WR. O line etc. again I'm a life long pats plan but I know the pats are not as talented a team as Denver,


Let's think, and use logic,the TE got arrested after the draft and really deep in FA. And now he has the draft with several tight ends that can make an impact. You can't blame him unless he doesn't fix it for this season. We also had sudfeld who was really promising, until he turned into dudfeld.
 
I'm not sold. How many GM's screwed up re-signing one of their own players (Dumervil).
He is where he is because of his playing days, not due to GM qualities (see Phil Jackson).
If Denver does not win soon, he better be a good draft evaluator, because he will be picking toward the end.
 
John Elway Era
2013
28-Sylvester Williams
58-Montee Ball
90-Kayvon Webster
146-Quanterus Smith
161-Tavarres King
173-Vinston Painter
234-Zac Dysert
2012
36-Derek Wolfe
57-Brock Osweiler
67-Ronnie Hillman
101-Omar Bolden
108-Philip Blake
137-Malik Jackson
188-Danny Trevathan
2011
2-Von Miller
45-Rahim Moore
46-Orlando Franklin
67-Nate Irving
108-Quinton Carter
129-Julius Thomas
189-Mike Mohamed
204-Virgil Green
247-Jeremy Beal

Josh McDaniels Era
2010
22-Demaryius Thomas
25-Tim Tebow
45-Zane Beadles
80-J.D. Walton
87-Eric Decker
137-Perrish Cox
183-Eric Olsen
225-Syd'Quan Thompson
232-Jammie Kirlew
2009
12-Knowshon Moreno
18-Robert Ayers
37-Alphonso Smith
48-Darcel McBath
64-Richard Quinn
114-David Bruton
132-Seth Olsen
141-Kenny McKinley
174-Tom Brandstater
225-Blake Schlueter
 
John Elway Era
2013
28-Sylvester Williams
58-Montee Ball
90-Kayvon Webster
146-Quanterus Smith
161-Tavarres King
173-Vinston Painter
234-Zac Dysert
2012
36-Derek Wolfe
57-Brock Osweiler
67-Ronnie Hillman
101-Omar Bolden
108-Philip Blake
137-Malik Jackson
188-Danny Trevathan
2011
2-Von Miller
45-Rahim Moore
46-Orlando Franklin
67-Nate Irving
108-Quinton Carter
129-Julius Thomas
189-Mike Mohamed
204-Virgil Green
247-Jeremy Beal

Josh McDaniels Era
2010
22-Demaryius Thomas
25-Tim Tebow
45-Zane Beadles
80-J.D. Walton
87-Eric Decker
137-Perrish Cox
183-Eric Olsen
225-Syd'Quan Thompson
232-Jammie Kirlew
2009
12-Knowshon Moreno
18-Robert Ayers
37-Alphonso Smith
48-Darcel McBath
64-Richard Quinn
114-David Bruton
132-Seth Olsen
141-Kenny McKinley
174-Tom Brandstater
225-Blake Schlueter

I forgot that Elway drafted Miller, but as the fourth pick in the draft he was pretty much a no brainer.
 
Having flashbacks.

Peyton and the Colts are going to cap hell and will never win a Super Bowl.

Now it is Peyton and the Broncos.

I was flamed and had my Patriots fan loyalty questioned when I argue that the Colts were not going to cap hell and could win a Super Bowl under their style of cap management.

Am a lot older now so I am not going to put myself through getting attacked by fellow Patriots fans once again.

I will just ask those who predict cap hell for the Broncos
» Over the Cap- Denver Broncos 2015 Salary Cap and Contracts
» Over the Cap- Denver Broncos 2016 Salary Cap and Contracts
» Over the Cap- Denver Broncos 2017 Salary Cap and Contracts

to look at the prorated signing bonus amounts in the above 3 links
and tell us why you think that the Broncos are going to cap hell.

Because those 3 tables tell me that the Broncos are signing players to contracts that they can easily get out without creating a lot of dead money on their cap.

and then look at
» Over the Cap- New England Patriots 2015 Salary Cap and Contracts
» Over the Cap- New England Patriots 2016 Salary Cap and Contracts
» Over the Cap- New England Patriots 2017 Salary Cap and Contracts
for the Patriots and be consistent with your Broncos reasoning and apply it to the Patriots and tell us do you think that the Patriots are going to cap hell.

For the record, I do not think that either team are going to cap hell.

Miguel,

Thanks for your response. I really appreciate your insight. With all due respect, I was never one to believe the Colts were approaching salary cap hell. I'm not sure where that faction of the fan base was. I always thought the Colts did a good job with the cap. They re-signed their own homegrown players like Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Freeney, Mathis, etc. Did they overpay? Perhaps- but in my opinion it's better to overpay for your own guys, since you don't take on the risk of a high-priced free agents not fitting in (example, Adalius Thomas.) In addition, while the price tag might be high, but it would be higher on the free market, so locking them up before they hit the market is the best strategy. To me, it is the big-name signings from outside your organization that potentially destroy a franchise for several years and force them to rebuild. Building through the draft and locking up your guys long-term works. Notice that when the Patriots sign a guy from outside their system, the contract is almost always a short-term trial. They may pay a bit more for that one year, but they want to know what they're getting before the long-term commitment.

The Steelers had a similar approach to the Pats and Colts, and both teams were good for a long stretch throughout the 2000s, combining to play in five Super Bowls. Those teams were all build the same way:

1. The draft is at the center of building a team.
2. Developing and locking up your good draft picks serves as the core of your team.
3. Free agency is used primarily to build depth, sign some players to short-term "tryout deals", get other players who are good value in the market, and occasionally, if all stars align, add a core franchise player.

I don't think the Patriots broke their approach this offseason. They signed their own (Edelman) and let Talib go because it was an insane deal. LaFell and Browner were not very expensive, and they waited until they say the market was low for both players, whereas the Broncos paid top of the market for all of theirs. The Broncos just gave out four contracts worth over $5M annually each to big name players with the intent of making them core contributors with expectations that they'll perform at a pro bowl level, while there are very reasonable doubts about all of them. I believe that is a bad approach.

And to answer your question about why the Broncos are going to be in salary cap trouble: Von Miller, Demaryius Thomas, Julius Thomas, Orlando Franklin, Kevin Vickerson, Terrence Knighton, Chris Harris, and a variety of other role players. That's a lot of players that they need to re-sign, and now all of them will set their baseline at where their new teammates are coming in. We should keep in mind that Miller and Thomas will likely see mega-contracts and may be the highest paid at their positions.
 
People seem to miss the fact that the Broncos lost a significant part of their offense this offseason.

• Decker scored 24 touchdowns in the past two seasons and had 87 receptions, and 1288 yards this past season.
• Moreno had nearly 1600 total yards last season and 13 touchdowns.
• Beadles is a pro bowl LG that started 62 games in the past 4 seasons.
• Woodward had 201 tackles, 7 sacks, 4 forced fumbles, and 4 interceptions in the past 2 seasons.
• Phillips had 10 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, and 1 interception last season.
• Rogers-Cromartie had 3 interceptions and 14 pass defends last season.
• Bailey is a HOF CB and their long time defensive leader.
• Ayers was third on their team with 5.5 sacks last season.

Do not get me wrong Talib, Ware, Ward, and Sanders are great but they essentially traded these players for them.
 
I gave the OP a "like" for the nature of the post

Elway is certainly focused only on the short term

But he's also in a "win now" mode, more so than the Pats given Peyton's age and injury history

As such, mortgaging the future makes a bit of sense

I still think he overestimated the CB market for example but it's tough to fault him for going "win now" as a strategy
 
I completely agree with ya, OP. Elway is risking the future of the team for the present. I like the way the Seahawks and Pats run things. Both teams don't give out huge contracts for only a few players, and most of the members of the teams were not big name players before they got there (Brady, Edelman and Wilson are the ones that come to mind). Everyone has heard of Manning, Ware, Welker, etc., and knows how good of players they are. I see the Broncos as the Miami Heat of football. The Heat wanted a championship, and so they bought up all of the good talent. Elway wants a championship, and so he is buying up all of the talent. I really hope this comes back to bite them later. Preferably without them winning a championship.
 
You can call it sour grapes, but I was probably the biggest voice of reason last year about the Broncos and Manning, as I thought they were a really good team and the class of the AFC. I think Manning is one of the best regular season QBs ever, but I can't believe all of the hype and praise being thrown at John Elway.

His philosophy boils down to this:

1. Find a big name player on the free agent market.
2. Wait until other teams have courted and evaluated that player, setting the market.
3. Come over-the-top and offer the player more money, basically telling them "we'll give you more as long as you say yes right now."

Not a single signing has been below market, a player who happens to uniquely fit their scheme, or a diamond in the rough. He outbids everyone, gets the player, and yet the media thinks this is a good strategy. Almost all of these players are likely to perform below the cost of their contract, considering that 31 other teams did not value the player as highly as the Broncos, and that is the inherent problem with free agency, but particularly the problem with the first-day, big-name superstar landings.

This is a failing philosophy, and Elway is just risking that the team will win a championship before it all comes crashing down. The truth is that the Broncos are very good because of Peyton Manning (which was his only good move) and young, drafted, cheap talent, such as Demaryius Thomas, Von Miller, Chris Harris, Julius Thomas, Terrence Knighton, Trindon Holliday, Knowshown Moreno, etc. These guys came from a different regime.

If players like Demarcus Ware and Aqib Talib fail in a an epic fashion, which isn't unlikely, the money that went towards those players is money that can't be spend to re-sign their own. Meanwhile, how much do you think Von Miller will command now that an aging has-been just got $10M per year, and how much for Harris when Talib makes $9M and Harris might be as effective?

This reminds me of the Jets in 2009-10. Rex Ryan went out and spent a lot of money on Bart Scott, Calvin Pace, Ladanian Tomlinson, Kris Jenkins, Brad Smith and Santonio Holmes. Much like Elway, Ryan just outbid everyone else without really finding any value signings. They didn't focus on the draft or developing players. Everyone thought that Ryan had really hit some home runs, but in reality, it was the young, drafted talent from a different regime that was the nucleus- Darrelle Revis, Nick Mangold, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Leon Washington, Dustin Keller. Ryan drafted poorly and the well ran dry; when all was said and done, the Jets were not able to restock, and it turned out guys like Scott and Pace were decent but not worth anything close their value. The Jets sank- the money was tied up in overpaid veterans. I see the Broncos as very similar, although because they have Peyton Manning, it may not be as apparent. Ultimately, Elway uses the same philosophy- pay more than anyone else in the name of "being aggressive." This isn't being innovative or using a winning strategy in the NFL, where you need to think outside the box. This is just using an old strategy that may have worked when there was no salary cap, but a strategy that time and time again has failed in the salary cap era.


Sorry, but you are just in denial. He went out and got one of the biggest players ever when several teams were courting him, and landed Manning. They instantly had one of the worst offenses in the league under Tebow, and became one of the top 3 offenses in the league the next year. Then they end up stealing Welker from their main AFC rival and break all of the Patriots records, beat the Patriots in the playoffs, and make this Manning/Brady debate becoming more irritating. And now that Elway has gone out and landed some studs for their defense now, well he is clearly determined to do everything possible to win a SB. He is doing a hell of a job. This is definitely sour grapes on your part and nothing more than that. Elway deserves credit. Not hate. I can't stand the guy, but he has built a winner and is doing what you would want a GM to do in order to sustain a winner and to improve every year.
 
I don't think the Patriots broke their approach this offseason.

When was the last time you saw the Patriots agree to a fake deal like Revis?
When was the last time you saw the Patriots give a player all the leverage in contract negotiations to a player? If Revis plays well in 2014, he has the upper hand in any extension negotiations.

And to answer your question about why the Broncos are going to be in salary cap trouble: Von Miller, Demaryius Thomas, Julius Thomas, Orlando Franklin, Kevin Vickerson, Terrence Knighton, Chris Harris, and a variety of other role players. That's a lot of players that they need to re-sign, and now all of them will set their baseline at where their new teammates are coming in. We should keep in mind that Miller and Thomas will likely see mega-contracts and may be the highest paid at their positions.

Are you saying that when a team cannot keep all of its players that it is in cap hell? When was the last time the Patriots kept all of its players? Is it not the nature of the salary cap and the existence of the draft that requires teams to churn over its roster annually?

The Patriots also have lots of starters that will reach free agency in a couple of years. Chandler Jones will likely see a mega-contract and may be among the highest paid defensive ends. In 2016 the Patriots will be paying Chandler Jones and Hightower their first round option amounts while the following

Ryan Allen, P
Chris Barker, G
Josh Kline, OT
Kenbrell Thompkins, WR
Joe Vellano, DT
are all scheduled to be RFAs and the following
Logan Ryan, Duron Harmon,Josh Boycemay may have their 2016 salary increased to the low RFA tender level if they reached the Proven Performance Escalator level by then.

Are you saying that the Patriots will be able to keep all of its upcoming free agents and that the Broncos will not?
 
Silly Miguel, using logic and such... Why do you not just submit to homer-ism ?

While you do make good points, you can't seriously compare that list of future FAs (Kline ? Vellano ?) to the one for the Broncos... Chandler, yes. But not the vast majority of those you listed.

Overall, you make excellent arguments and I'm onboard with your thinking - until this last post.
 
This is a failing philosophy, and Elway is just risking that the team will win a championship before it all comes crashing down.

And why is this dumb? He's got a short window to win a championship with Peyton, is Brock Osweiler the future?
 
Overall, you make excellent arguments and I'm onboard with your thinking - until this last post.

Was not comparing the future RFAs to the UFAs. Just pointing out that the Patriots in 2016 will have more expenses to account for than will the Broncos. It was poorly said. Did not mention all of the UFAs that the Patriots will have in future years - (McCourty, Solder, Ridley, Vereen, Dennard, Siliga, the entire 2013 draft class will become UFAs at the same time as Chandler and Hightower.
 
Silly Miguel, using logic and such... Why do you not just submit to homer-ism ?

Why can't homers accept non-homers:);)?
 


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