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JJ: Colts OL coach "Best in league at FILMING signals"

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by BigMike, Sep 29, 2007.

  1. BigMike

    BigMike PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So says Jimmy Johnson, who also admitted to cheating (filming)

    "Howard Mudd, who currently serves as the offensive line coach with the Colts, saying that Johnson "was the best in the entire league at stealing signals." He was talking about FILMING FILMING FILMING signals.....sorry for any miscommunication...

    per pft.com

    Q: Via video, Jimmy? Or no?

    JJ: Oh yeah, I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league. Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you're going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace.

    Q: But did you do it by taping the signal caller?

    JJ: Yeah.

    Q: Oh you did.

    JJ: That's what I'm saying. I was saying one of Marty Schottenheimers scouts, Mark Hatley, who has passed away now, Mark told me that's how they did it, and Howard Mudd their offensive line coach with Kansas City, who now coaches for Tony Dungy, he was the best in the entire league at stealing signals.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2007
  2. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

    The title and the body of your post aren't synched up with each other.

    Just who is the pinning the label onto whom?
  3. djmika760

    djmika760 Banned

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    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

    It wasnt cheating until it the rule was imposed on sep. 6th 2006.
  4. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

    It still isn't cheating - that's the point. The Patriots, nor the Colts, cheated - the Patriots just had an illegally placed camera.
  5. Keegs

    Keegs Rookie

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    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

    This is truly a sad day for the NFL.
  6. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

    STEALING SIGNALS IS NOT ILLEGAL. This fundamental misunderstanding is a huge part of what is fueling this (non)story.
  7. PatSunday

    PatSunday Rookie

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    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

    This title is misleading. Jimmy's entire conversation (in a radio interview posted here earlier) was about filming signals. Moderator, please change thread title to:

    Colts O Line Coach "Best in NFL at filming signals"
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2007
  8. BigMike

    BigMike PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at FILMING signals"

    title fixed, thanks
  9. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at FILMING signals"

    he doesnt do it any more if the colts still video taped it isnt his job ne more
  10. SVN

    SVN Rookie

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  11. BigMike

    BigMike PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at FILMING signals"

    Two weeks ago, FOX's Jimmy Johnson admitted on the network's pregame show that he engaged in the same type of cheating that got the Pats in trouble during a Week One win over the Jets. (The topic was one of the ten that some Internet hack addressed on SportingNews.com after Week Two.)
  12. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

    Title "fixed" so it is MISLEADING. Unless someone here has actually heard JJ say Mudd filmed signals.

    Because the PFT blurb does NOT say Mudd was filming. It says he was the best at STEALING SIGNALS. Which is allowed if you are not using a camera.

    It makes enormous sense that an offensive line coach would stand there and watch the opponents' signals and try to figure them out. It makes no sense that an offensive line coach would actually film them. No sense at all. Maybe the JJ meant someone else filmed them and he was best at deciphering them later, but that's not the same thing either.

    The title is NOW misleading. It makes Patsfans look like idjots.
  13. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

    There was no new rule, show me the memo where it says it's a new rule, or even an article that claims it was new. The 2006 memo was a reminder, I've already posted all the new rules since 1993 and explained how the commissioner can't impose rules by himself. Where does that leave the new rule BS?
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2007
  14. Pujo

    Pujo Rookie

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    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

    What would be cheating?
  15. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

    Filming, stealing, the difference doesn't matter to me.

    If the Patriots "cheated", the camera was just the method to the "cheating" of stealing signs. Not against the rules but, according to the haters, against the rules of sportsmanship.

    OK fine.

    In that case Mudd's method of stealing signs, whatever it is, is also against the rules of sportsmanship. And if it isn't then neither is what the Patriots did and we got b!tch slapped for the illegal placement of a camera.

    They can't have it both ways.
  16. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at stealing signals"

    Paying off a ref would be. Illegally placing a camera ? How about wearing the socks too high ? That's illegal too.
  17. PatSunday

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    Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

    Nope, it's correct. Like I said, the conversation was about FILMING, and just quoting the stealing signals part is incorrect.

    Q: Did you ever steal signals?

    JJ: Oh in a heartbeat, yeah. Yes I did.

    Q: Via video, Jimmy? Or no?

    JJ: Oh yeah, I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league. Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you're going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace.

    Q: But did you do it by taping the signal caller?

    JJ: Yeah.

    Q: Oh you did.

    JJ: That's what I'm saying. I was saying one of Marty Schottenheimers scouts, Mark Hatley, who has passed away now, Mark told me that's how they did it, and Howard Mudd their offensive line coach with Kansas City, who now coaches for Tony Dungy, he was the best in the entire league at stealing signals.

    Q: Where'd you put your guy who was videotaping? Where was he?

    JJ: My guy was up with my camera crew in the press box. So you'd just put an extra camera up with your camera crew in the press box who zoomed in on the signal callers. That's the best way to do it, but anyway you can't always do that because the press box camera crew might be on the same side as the opposing team.
    If they're on the same side as the opposing team that's when you need to do it from the sideline.

    Q: Also with some operations and some teams they have equipment set up within the stadium so they can just run it ack and check what's going on during the game anyway.

    JJ: Oh I'll tell you [laughing] some of the stuff that goes on it's almost comical.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2007
  18. BigMike

    BigMike PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thanks for backing me up against the Alamo, who needs to read clearly before throwing insults about Patriots fans.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2007
  19. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

    Like I said, it's logically equivalent to me. If the usage of the filmed signs is so awful then the acquisition of the signs is equally awful however acquired. If the method of acquiring the signs is what's so awful then we just have an illegally placed camera.
  20. kolbitr

    kolbitr Rookie

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    I still think that the people so crazed and offended over this are missing the point...I suspect that BB would watch these tapes in his off time, such as in the offseason, looking for tendencies, looking for patterns and habits, the way that experienced tennis players will watch videos of their opponents to spot tendencies and habits in their game. I also suspect that for BB, a lifelong student of defensive football, these signal patterns came to resemble something like a language, one that he felt he could read, and one which certainly hardly anyone else would have been able to benefit from.

    I'm not claiming that he could do this--obviously, many people used this sort of video for the primary purpose of benefits asap, and its primary value was probably middling. But although many people have come forward and said that although the practice is old and widespread, and yet is of middling value, many others have asked why BB would do something if it was of little value--the assumption being that such an effort must have resulted in enormous advantages. I believe the first group (such as Jimmy Johnson) is correct, that such taping is of little proven benefit; but I also would not be surprised to discover that BB found some intellectual pleasure in the effort to find a kind of submerged pattern in the signal calls of other team's coordinators.

    Ahh...it's just a thought.
  21. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

    That may be true, but you are in a significant minority by holding that position.
  22. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

    The problem is that everyone has a bias. I think most people here agree with me. And most fans of other teams don't - because they don't want to. We're outnumbered 31-1 but if people want to say I'm (we're) biased, I'll shrug and say most others are too.
  23. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I wasn't insulting Patriots fans, I was insulting just you :)

    In my previous post I was going by the attributed PFT blurb, which says "stealing". But let's look at the above quote. Does the quote I was supposed to read say filming? No. It says "stealing". In that context it probably means someone else filmed the signals, likely under the direction of the head coach whoever that was. Mudd then interpreted the signals, apparently. To me that is a MAJOR difference than Mudd filming signals.

    The reason I pointed all this out, is that you are obviously trying to implicate the Colts, and while that may be true the info we have so far doesn't do so. In a previous job Mudd interpreted films ordered by someone else.

    It's a place to start investigation if anyone wants to... if Florio is as impartial and above-board as he says he is he'll follow this line of investigation as much or more than the Patriots one.
  24. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

    I disagree that most fans of other teams are complaining about stealing signals and consider the filming part incidental. Most people think signals sent in plain sight are open season for coaches on the opposite sideline.

    Part of my basis for asserting this is the similar situation in baseball. I know of no baseball fan who believes a runner on second base stealing catcher's signs is cheating. But I believe almost every fan believes if a team puts a guy with binoculars in the center field bleachers that's cheating. the difference is that a player is a participant in the game, someone in the stands is an outside agent looking to change the game. In the case of football a coach is part of the game, Matt Estrella is not.
  25. Deus Irae

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    Disable Jersey

    Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

    I played baseball up to and in the college level, and might have gone further if I hadn't gotten injured. I think stealing signs is cheating, no matter what the rule is. I feel the same way, in principle, about stealing signs in every sport. However, the sports themselves don't always feel that way.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2007
  26. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

    If they can get the signal into the hitter before the pitch I agree. And if the Patriots got the signal and got it into the QB or MLB then I would agree that's cheating.

    In either case if it were for post game analysis then I don't agree and that's what I believe was the case.
  27. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

    I agree with you there... but I do think most non-Patriots fans don't believe the Patriots cameramen didn't relay signs to the coaches. The entire outcry against the Pats is implicitly based on the Pats using the cameras for in-game advantage (e.g. the lawsuit). It's much easier for Patriots fans who have seen time and again the maniacal attention to detail BB displays to believe the filming was for such a seemingly low-benefit future cause.
  28. PatriotsReign

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    Re: Colts O Line Coach 'Best in league at FILMING signals"

    Who gives a crap what "theories" the media has come up with.

    One thing we need to get straight here is that the "Media" and/or their theories have nothing to do with this issue.

    Look, we really should be "up in arms" over the hundreds of media individuals who have come up with false stories and mixed their opinions & beliefs in with few facts to exaggerate this thing beyond reason.

    If JJ said it, he said it. And that's all that matters. He surely wouldn't "make it up"!
  29. PatriotsReign

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    Re: Patsfans best on the Internet at posting misleading information

    Why are we even discussing an issue that has been 100% resolved? It is now done, finished.....MOOT!

    These facts remain,

    -Belichick is still the best coach in the NFL today...possibly the best ever!
    -The Patriots still have 3 super bowl trophies that remain untarnished
    -The Patriots chances THIS year are pretty darn good

    Opposing fans BELIEVE Patriots fans should feel embaressed...but we remain PROUD!:D

    Opposing fans wanted harsher penalties...but it didn't happen!:D

    Opposing fans want this issue to linger...but it is going away quickly!:D

    Opposing fans WANTED this to affect the Patriots play in 2007...but it has made it better!:D

    To opposing fans....

    TOUGH SHIIITE!!
  30. tdw777

    tdw777 Rookie

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    I don't know what the PFT blurb said...but I listened to the interview and JJ did not say or imply that Mudd did any filiming. He only said that Mudd was one of the best of interpreting signals. There was no implication that Mudd did any filming.

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