Jets vs. Patriots: Breakdown/Analysis

[Patspsycho]

Brady trash-talking 6'4 300 pound OG Turner. Did not catch what he said but the four letter word was involved.

So much for the UGG image he is trying to maintain.

 

[Patspsycho]

Some of you may have wondered, when Mayo ripped the ball out of LT's hands, why it wasn't ruled a fumble. The answer is revealed here, where you see Smith carefully place the ball laterally for LT to pick out out of the modified wing. Since the ball does not go backwards, LT becomes a receiver and therefore the ruling on the field will be forward progress.

This is also why Woodhead's 50 yards did not go down as a run, but as a pass play because it was a lateral shovel.

 

[Patspsycho]

Here is where the excess line motion wrinkle turns into a real game-changer. In the still below we see the 24 nickel pass D unbalanced (weakside overload). Butler is the NB on Holmes, Sanders fakes cover 2 and changes to man press on Edwards. TBC motions from WOLB to man coverage on the slot. LBs are on the line and this is so perfectly timed, you can see Mayo call the change. The line shifts to strongside shade and it becomes a standard 3-4 cover 2 nickel, and the time taken to realize this has cost Sanchez a few seconds off the clock and a delay of game penalty is called (note the :00 graphic on the bottom still), pushing this to a 2nd and 11, and this is where the drive is killed, allowing the Pats to go on top 17-0 and put the Jets in a hole from where they will not recover.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Some really great insights here, thanks. I plan on re-watching the game so will keep my eyes open for these things.

 

[SanAngeloState]

If woodhead's run was off of a lateral, wouldn't it be counted as a run? He was forward of brady when he caught it.

 

[unoriginal]

Some of you may have wondered, when Mayo ripped the ball out of LT's hands, why it wasn't ruled a fumble. The answer is revealed here, where you see Smith carefully place the ball laterally for LT to pick out out of the modified wing. Since the ball does not go backwards, LT becomes a receiver and therefore the ruling on the field will be forward progress.

This is also why Woodhead's 50 yards did not go down as a run, but as a pass play because it was a lateral shovel.

I don't understand this explanation at all. Laterals are still handoffs, the ball has to very obviously be handed forward to count as a pass, and Brad Smith was not credited with a pass completion in the box score. More importantly, forward progress is a ruling that occurs independently of how the runner came into possession of the ball.

Also, N.B. that running back isn't LdT, it's Shonn Greene.

 

[Patspsycho]

I don't understand this explanation at all. Laterals are still handoffs, the ball has to very obviously be handed forward to count as a pass, and Brad Smith was not credited with a pass completion in the box score. More importantly, forward progress is a ruling that occurs independently of how the runner came into possession of the ball.

Also, N.B. that running back isn't LdT, it's Shonn Greene.

Well that is my interpretation of it since Mayo was not credited with a recovered fumble. What do you think is the reason he was not credited with a fumble?

Also my understanding is that a lateral pass qualifies as a forward pass, because if you threw or handed it behind the lateral, a fumble would be called, correct?

My reasoning is that since the ball was spotted at the point of maximum forward progress, what else could it be? If you can show me to be in error, then I will acknowledge it.

 

[Patspsycho]

If woodhead's run was off of a lateral, wouldn't it be counted as a run? He was forward of brady when he caught it.

I will take a look at that play when I get to it, you might be correct.

 

[unoriginal]

Here is where the excess line motion wrinkle turns into a real game-changer. In the still below we see the 24 nickel pass D unbalanced (weakside overload). Butler is the NB on Holmes, Sanders fakes cover 2 and changes to man press on Edwards. TBC motions from WOLB to man coverage on the slot. LBs are on the line and this is so perfectly timed, you can see Mayo call the change. The line shifts to strongside shade and it becomes a standard 3-4 cover 2 nickel, and the time taken to realize this has cost Sanchez a few seconds off the clock and a delay of game penalty is called (note the :00 graphic on the bottom still), pushing this to a 2nd and 11, and this is where the drive is killed, allowing the Pats to go on top 17-0 and put the Jets in a hole from where they will not recover.

In the pics here I'm seeing 3-3 stack. Note the Jets' twins are tighter to the bottom of the screen and the split end on that side is Dustin Keller, so I don't understand the weakside overload part if you saw 2-4. The Pats are pretty obviously initially calling strong to Keller and the offset RB, which is why the two "real" DLs are on that side of the line and Cunningham's backside. When TBC walks up on Keller the nose tackle and strong DE actually shift up the screen, meaning they've actually changed to 3-3 under; TBC doesn't count as part of the line.

EDIT: Should probably add to this. The hallmark of an "Under" shift on a front is the entire strong side of the defensive line shifted weak one gap (the nose is now backside, the defense end over the guard) and the strong side linebacker brought down to the line of scrimmage, with all other linebackers off the line. Generally you count linebackers and lineman, no matter where they are, based on whether their hand is on the ground or not. So a linebacker like Spikes (I think) can be standing right in the backside A gap reading the name on the center's jersey and not be part of the line, and TBC can be stood up on a tight end wide and not be part of the line, but a nose tackle or defensive end is a part of the line even if they're flexed back a yard or two, so long as they are in a 3-point.

You can also see that Sanders and McCourty have flipped zones on the bottom of those pics, and presumably Meriweather is playing the deep zone on the top, further evidence there is a strong call to the near side.

 

[unoriginal]

Well that is my interpretation of it since Mayo was not credited with a recovered fumble. What do you think is the reason he was not credited with a fumble?

Also my understanding is that a lateral pass qualifies as a forward pass, because if you threw or handed it behind the lateral, a fumble would be called, correct?

My reasoning is that since the ball was spotted at the point of maximum forward progress, what else could it be? If you can show me to be in error, then I will acknowledge it.

Am I not thinking of the right play? Greene runs into line, gets stood up, carried backwards, and while failing, the ball is stripped out? My interpretation of that is that the play was blown dead due to forward progress and therefore the fumble never happened, it was a simple run. I would imagine that became a point-of-emphasis after the Ravens-Bills game where the entire Ravens defense hoisted a Bills player into the air and stripped him. I'm not trying to be cute when I say I don't understand the need for additional explanation in that case.

A perfect lateral is a hand-off, not a forward pass. Laterals and hand-offs predate the forward pass in the game of football, so rulings of lateral usually take precedence.

 

[Patspsycho]

In the pics here I'm seeing 3-3 stack. Note the Jets' twins are tighter to the bottom of the screen and the split end on that side is Dustin Keller, so I don't understand the weakside overload part if you saw 2-4. The Pats are pretty obviously initially calling strong to Keller and the offset RB, which is why the two "real" DLs are on that side of the line and Cunningham's backside. When TBC walks up on Keller the nose tackle and strong DE actually shift up the screen, meaning they've actually changed to 3-3 under; TBC doesn't count as part of the line.

You can also see that Sanders and McCourty have flipped zones on the bottom of those pics, and presumably Meriweather is playing the deep zone on the top, further evidence there is a strong call to the near side.

My 24 call is based on the personnel on the field, Love and Wilfork are the only DL on the field. Also the linebackers are in motion which is why I don't see how this is a 33 stack, unless it is TBC, and my question to you would be how he is considered the 3rd man and not a part of the line? Is it because of how he is grouped and regardless of what coverage he is in?

 

[Patspsycho]

Am I not thinking of the right play? Greene runs into line, gets stood up, carried backwards, and while failing, the ball is stripped out? My interpretation of that is that the play was blown dead due to forward progress and therefore the fumble never happened, it was a simple run. I would imagine that became a point-of-emphasis after the Ravens-Bills game where the entire Ravens defense hoisted a Bills player into the air and stripped him. I'm not trying to be cute when I say I don't understand the need for additional explanation in that case.

A perfect lateral is a hand-off, not a forward pass. Laterals and hand-offs predate the forward pass in the game of football, so rulings of lateral usually take precedence.

Yes ok, I am not giving you a hard time. I am just trying to understand it- so yes what you say makes sense because when forward progress is clearly stopped, the play is therefore dead, so you are right. I was wrong.

 

[unoriginal]

My 24 call is based on the personnel on the field, Love and Wilfork are the only DL on the field. Also the linebackers are in motion which is why I don't see how this is a 33 stack, unless it is TBC, and my question to you would be how he is considered the 3rd man and not a part of the line? Is it because of how he is grouped and regardless of what coverage he is in?

Sorry, I wasn't clear and anticipated your question late. I edited my second post but will respond again here.

You are right, in terms of base personnel the Pats have a 2-4 nickel on the field. But in terms of alignment it is a 3-3 stack with the Will linebacker walking up into the A gap and inspecting the name on the center's jersey presnap. The reason it is a Stack is because the two other backers initially are right over/shaded one gap strongside of the linemen, who are balanced across the offensive line, and the reason it is a 3-3 is because three people have their hands on the ground and three people do not. Cunningham and TBC are listed as DE/OLB for this reason; if either was in a 5-2 or 4-3 system they could easily be that backside 9 tech and no one would question their DE status. In this case Cunningham is the third DE, not TBC, who is stood up.

Even if TBC behaves like a normal DE in this case and contain rushes the QB, ignoring the tight end, it's still a 3-3 under defense in the end. If a hands-down defensive end zone drops, like that poor Jets player who tried to cover Woodhead on the rub pass, that doesn't change what his alignment was at the snap. It doesn't make him a linebacker safety.

 

[Patspsycho]

Sorry, I wasn't clear and anticipated your question late. I edited my second post but will respond again here.

You are right, in terms of base personnel the Pats have a 2-4 nickel on the field. But in terms of alignment it is a 3-3 stack with the Will linebacker walking up into the A gap and inspecting the name on the center's jersey presnap. The reason it is a Stack is because the two other backers initially are right over/shaded one gap strongside of the linemen, who are balanced across the offensive line, and the reason it is a 3-3 is because three people have their hands on the ground and three people do not. Cunningham and TBC are listed as DE/OLB for this reason; if either was in a 5-2 or 4-3 system they could easily be that backside 9 tech and no one would question their DE status. In this case Cunningham is the third DE, not TBC, who is stood up.

Even if TBC behaves like a normal DE in this case and contain rushes the QB, ignoring the tight end, it's still a 3-3 under defense in the end. If a hands-down defensive end zone drops, like that poor Jets player who tried to cover Woodhead on the rub pass, that doesn't change what his alignment was at the snap. It doesn't make him a linebacker safety.

So the hand placement of the linemen/backers dictates the alignment (3 point/stood up)?

Thanks for the further clarification.

 

[unoriginal]

So the hand placement of the linemen/backers dictates the alignment (3 point/stood up)?

Thanks for the further clarification.

Hand placement and gap placement, yep. I mean, what's the difference between the 3-4 and 5-2, or the Double Eagle Flex? In the 3-4, the ends are stood up and are therefore OLBs. That's really it. Being stood up allows them to do some things that turns the 3-4 a different defense in practice than the 5-2, but 3-point/2-point is the basic philosophical/chalkboard difference.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Family intruded into my day, so I didn't get any time to watch the DVR, but here's links to a breakdown of the first half which you might enjoy:

AllWorldTE's Analysis 1 of 3
AllWorldTE's Analysis 2 of 3
AllWorldTE's Analysis 3 of 3

 

[BTTA]

I'm confused about all this uncertainty about lateral vs. forward pass. I thought the distinction and defition was simply based on direction. If it is sideways ("lateral") or backwards, it is a lateral, counts as a run, and is a live ball if dropped. If it is forward, it is a pass, and is a dead ball if dropped.

Brady's connection to Woodhead was forward, so it was a pass. It makes no difference if it is overhand or underhand.

Am I wrong?

 

[Calciumee]

I'm confused about all this uncertainty about lateral vs. forward pass. I thought the distinction and defition was simply based on direction. If it is sideways ("lateral") or backwards, it is a lateral, counts as a run, and is a live ball if dropped. If it is forward, it is a pass, and is a dead ball if dropped.

Brady's connection to Woodhead was forward, so it was a pass. It makes no difference if it is overhand or underhand.

Am I wrong?

That's what I learnt it as! I am sure Brady could throw it up and header it into Woodhead's hands, but aslong as it goes forwards it is a pass

The way it goes forward shouldn't matter

 

[Kontradiction]

Jets were caught by surprise by the 9 route Gronk ran. Even though they knew it was a pass play and didn't bite on the PA, the FS, Poole, doesn't even roll over to Gronk's side until much too late and the nearest help is Lowery, the LCB. Smith is badly overmatched and commits the DPI.

Yeah, but who expects Gronk to run a go-route?

 

[Kulko]

Yes ok, I am not giving you a hard time. I am just trying to understand it- so yes what you say makes sense because when forward progress is clearly stopped, the play is therefore dead, so you are right. I was wrong.

I dont think the play is automatically dead, but unfortunately the Ref is blowing the whistle just before Mayo rips it out. Of course once the play is blown dead and therefore a normal running play, the ball is spotted at the point of forward progress.