Re: Jesus names as evil those who think his Father would break heavenly law and have
To me, sects aren't problematic unless they become violent against one another. Five's a hilariously low estimate. I think you're thinking of the major movements (Conservative, Orthodox, Reform, etc.) Most sects in Judaism are the various flavors of Orthodox: Modern orthodox, Kotzkers, Lubavitchers, etc., etc., etc. The term you see here, Haredim, connotes any of the ultra-orthodox sects.
But one hallmark of Jewish diversity is that we very rarely devolve into violence over our differences -- except, for example, if you're trying to drive through a religious neighborhood in Jerusalem on the Sabbath.
Thus far, however, we haven't had a civil war over the subject (or a war between two Jewish countries, at least for the last 2600 years or so.)
One of the great pities of gnosticism, in my view, is that it is so consumed with definition by opposition. It's an adolescent trait. Mandaeans, who have been practicing one of the belief systems thrown into the general basket we call "Gnosticism" for a couple thousand years, nevertheless evinced that trait. They began as a Jewish sect, but were alienated from Judaism by such proclamations as the evil of Adonai (a specific name for God,) the falseness of Moses, and the proliferation of gods, rather than the oneness of God.
I'm not particularly religious, but this "woo hoo I can call God names" theory of discourse leaves me utterly cold. News flash: not shocking in 2013 to call God names. Seriously dude. And He's done much worse **** than get "himself" crucified, if you want to obsess on anthropomorphized notions of God(s). I mean, hell, He murders each and every one of us, if you want to get all hatey about it, right? He just takes his sweet time or does it with a little panache when we're at an early age. Beyond that, when millions die in diseases, wars, etc. etc. etc., it's really hard for a serious person who happens not to be Christian to be shocked that God would "murder Jesus..." I mean, that's it? The problem of bad things happening to good people is a much, much more compelling problem than the fate of one guy who was clearly a political thorn in a lot of people's sides.
All of this definition by negation leaves your own point of view a little murky. What are the values of the gnostic religion, other than smugness? It strikes me as a singsong children's chant of "I know something you don't know," combined with the tried and true (and universal) "My God's bigger than your God" stuff.
I know you've explained in the past your own epiphany (which I think unwittingly) you referred to as your "apotheosis." Personal revelation is all well and good, but unless it has a content you can somehow convey as a system of values, it's unlikely to be compelling to others.
I'm all for personal revelation, but I like my personal revelations to be something a bit more substantial than "The godhead spoke to me and told me that you're worshipping the wrong guy."
Of course, I'm just feeding the beast here. But I really would like to know the concepts key to your religion, insofar as they can be explained. It's fine that your view is almost certainly a DIY one, since gnostic worship centers/traditions are so rare in the West. Hell, I'm pretty off the main sequence of Judaism. I understand that. But I'm interested in core teachings in Judaism, and believe me, we don't get together and say "We don't believe in Jesus, amen."
What are the gnostic things that you do, that make you gnostic? What are the gnostic principles guiding your life, that make you gnostic?
Or, is your contention that gnosticism is simply a matter of claiming yourself to know stuff others don't know? It is, after all, inherent in the movement, as you can tell by the name. If so, that's a perfectly good answer. It's not, however, that compelling.
PFnV
Thanks for this.
I pulled a few things to comment on.
“it is so consumed with definition by opposition.”
I do not know how much in opposition other Gnostics are but admit that because of circumstances that that has become my major platform.
I am forced to because of the double standard of morality I see Christians having to adopt due to literal reading of their scriptures and the need to forgive their God for being such a prick. They condemn man while exonerating their version of God for the same sin. If I was not a feisty type, it would be quite trying. It forces me to be what some will see as a bully. Such is life.
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“I can call God names" theory of discourse leaves me utterly cold.”
When adherents say a genocidal God is Love, it is fair play to point out that that God is more like Hate. You would have me mince words and I will not compromise my morals and downplay a God who is more like a Satan.
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“it's really hard for a serious person who happens not to be Christian to be shocked that God would "murder Jesus..."
I agree but what should disturb is that Christians are dancing around the cross waiting in glee for him to die so they can be in ignorant bliss in thinking that a moral God would save their bloodthirsty souls as they eagerly line up to profit from that murder.
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“All of this definition by negation leaves your own point of view a little murky. What are the values of the gnostic religion, other than smugness?”
That last is my own and I would not attribute it to others. So is everything else as I cannot speak for others. The value of my belief, to me, center on freedom instead of slavery. I am not a slave to sin nor to God as scriptures demand. I am slaved to the ideal of what a God is, in terms of the best moral rules to live life by, that the Godhead’s method of thinking helped me visualize. That is, via thinking more demographically.
As a Gnostic Christian as opposed to a Gnostic of other traditions, my value and duty to them is to try to bring them to a higher moral position. As with this O P chastising them for embracing human sacrifice.
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“"My God's bigger than your God" stuff.”
Not at all. Gnostics, like Jesus, believe that the kingdom of God is within all of us so none of us are above the other and that would mean that unlike most Abrahamic cults, we do not subjugate our women because they are Goddesses in their own rite just as all males are Gods.
Egotistical?
No. It is believing the esoteric part of Jesus’ teachings and choosing to be his brethren.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
You are a Jew. Remember that in scriptures Jesus asked your ancestors if they had forgotten that they were gods. Would children of God expect any less of a title?
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“"The godhead spoke to me and told me that you're worshipping the wrong guy."
You would deny me what all religions and my antagonists say!
Whatever happened to reciprocity being fair play?
I hope you have not taken up Christian morals my friend.
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“it's unlikely to be compelling to others.”
My main goal is not to sell my beliefs because all there is to sell is ------seek God. That is what I do perpetually as Jesus demands. My main goal is to have others not accept a version of a God that has absolutely no morals.
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“But I really would like to know the concepts key to your religion, insofar as they can be explained.”
It is just accepting the type of moral system shown in this clip. You will note that it is centered on others while most religious systems start with a God centered on himself which is an inferior system. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
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“It's fine that your view is almost certainly a DIY one, since gnostic worship centers/traditions are so rare in the West.”
What does DIY mean?
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“But I'm interested in core teachings in Judaism,”
I do not blame you. Some of their theology cannot be beat even by modern laws.
Their history as killers, Joseph Campbell’s designation, as well as their captivity experience gave then a huge boost in spiritual thinking and insight in ancient days.
As I say, the Jews cannot be beat for their religious thinking and Christianity lost a lot when Constantine bought the Catholic Church and they reversed Jewish thinking. You do not like that I work with opposites but in reality I am trying to bring the Jewish theology that Christianity reversed back to it’s original and proper position.
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“What are the gnostic things that you do, that make you gnostic?”
I seek God and fight those whose God is inferior to the ideal God and who hurt all seekers and potential believers by polluting the God market. So to speak. Those are mostly the religious right.
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“Or, is your contention that gnosticism is simply a matter of claiming yourself to know stuff others don't know?”
Gnosticism is accepting the fact that there is no greater force for you than you. You are a God WIP, Work In Progress, and your moral obligation is to seek that God and bring him out into the open as Jesus says to do.
Socrates claimed that adult man’s primary job was to work on his character and prepare it for heave through thought and that is what all most do. Being a Gnostic is to, in a sense, become an adult.
Joseph Campbell--On Becoming an Adult - YouTube
Regards
DL
