Jaws says Moss gave a great effort last Sunday

[NYCPatsFan]

I am glad that the some of the football guys are showing up and pointing out the reality that many of us average fans have no clue about.

Bet we can expect Felger to issue an apology soon.

Criticism of plays and effort should always be expected and welcome but the vitrol some of the posters exhibited in wanting to send Randy out was just nauseating.

 

[JSn]

ESPN Radio - SuperStream Player

Link to the audio.

 

[letekro]

Rhody Patriot's apology is noticably absent from this thread

 

[Ryan]

I honestly never saw what the big deal was with his play on Sunday. There are 4 plays I keep seeing that are supposedly proof that he dogged it.

1) The pass toward the sideline that Gamble picked off because Moss "gave up on the route". I've seen this one the most, and all I see is a poor pass that the Panther had already intercepted before Moss even came out of his route. There was nothing Moss could've done there. Brady just threw a bad one. Not that big of a deal.

2) Moss' catch and fumble. He caught the ball, turned around, and got stripped. It's happened to him before, during times where he wasn't "giving up". I don't see any difference in the way he usually runs or holds on to the ball during that play.

3) The dropped pass people are saying he "alligator armed". To me, it looked like a simple dropped pass. Don't know what else to say about it.

4) And this last one, which I don't see as much as the others, is the high pass over the middle that Moss extended for but couldn't bring down. Seriously, it was over his head. Nothing wrong here.

Moss has had games like this in the past. Games where he only catches 1 pass, where a DB picks off one intended for him, where he drops an easy one, etc. That's exactly what this was, but when you combine it with the story of him being sent home last Wednesday, you get a bunch of overhyped crap that ESPN can stir up and talk about for a week. Really no big deal and I'm glad that Brady, Belichick, Kraft, and others have come to his defense.

 

[Jackson 2]

Well why the f*ck do you have a bias against Moss in the first place? He's been a great teammate and leader, has had the most productive 2+ seasons as it gets, he has been a model citizen, he buys into the team mentality, and he has been a great person overall. Why do you want him to fail so badly? If you try to look beyond the media you will find that he's a good guy.

You've got the wrong guy, my friend. I'm a huge Moss fan. I was complimenting Rob on his admission, not mine. I thought Randy was preoccupied and played horribly, but I didn't get the sense he was dogging it.

 

[Patspsycho]

Well why the f*ck do you have a bias against Moss in the first place? He's been a great teammate and leader, has had the most productive 2+ seasons as it gets, he has been a model citizen, he buys into the team mentality, and he has been a great person overall. Why do you want him to fail so badly? If you try to look beyond the media you will find that he's a good guy.

You better go back and read the original statement, you are completely way off base with this cussing. He was only commending Rob0729 for manning up to making a mistake and empathizing with how hard it is to eat crow. Now it looks like its time for YOU to man up as well.

 

[emoney_33]

It's a damn shame too many people around here are "guilty until proven innocent" when it comes to Moss. I commend you Rob for at least being able to admit your mistakes and not completely ignoring them like some people.

Usually when you see something out of the ordinary you say something like "wow that was really odd". Moss dogging it IS out of the ordinary at the very least for his entire time with the Patriots.

People want to claim to be objective by pointing to a tiny subset of plays (3 plays out of 71 he was in) and then by judging his "body language" without even thinking about other possibilities.

This isn't really directed towards you Rob, but there were far too many loud-mouthed people shouting about their objective analysis. No objective analysis, taking into account all the evidence as well as the knowledge that we only have minimal evidence via TV feed, comes to the conclusion that Moss was LIKELY dogging it.

I guess I can now thank Jaws for fixing some people's opinions

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Agreed. Effort is such a hard thing to determine unless the guy is doing completely nothing out there. Hodge is a bit of a cartoon IMO, but Jaws carries much more weight in his analysis...

... Its all perception and that fuels opinion. However, when a prolific performer like Moss who goes from averaging 6 catches for 95yds and a TD a game suddenly goes to averaging. 2.75 catches and 45 yds a game over his last 4, that is reason enough to dig and try to gain a better understanding of why that is happening. Personally, I do that with other athletes where there is a dramatic change in production and you use that as a reason to dig and speculate. It's human nature.

For me, there is no evidence that Moss has "checked out" or has "dogged it" but i'll be honest, the thought crossed my mind, but I liken his drop in production to multiple reasons- not just one with playcalling, frustration and focus being the prime reasons for his dropoff in production.

My .02$

This is true. I think one of the problems is some accused Moss of dogging it entirely or quitting, and the evidence clearly doesn't support that level of criticism. That's not even what the Panthers defenders said, it was merely a leap the media made based on their comments and what our eyes saw (which included other than 22 tape snap reviews). No one on the team has denied that Moss is frustrated and is being asked to battle through whatever it is that is frustrating him, and his own health may be at the core of that frustration. On an 8-5 team frustration and the need to battle through it is magnified. And reasonable critics are not demanding he run routes all out 70+ snaps a game. What they are concerned about is that he may be telegraphing plays and not maintaining sufficient focus or determination to make a reasonable number of plays in the limited opportunites coverage affords them. I think that is Brady's frustration with Randy's frustration... There is clearly something physical bothering him as well, but that's the case for many of his teamates too. Brady knows this is almost always the case. I remember Belichick telling him early in 2007 to just go up for the ball at it's highest point. He can't do that anymore. He seems to struggle with physicality and jams off the LOS and sharp breaks and cuts. He still draws double coverage regardless although because we don't have an alternate deep option or an OL that can handle 3 and 4 man pass rushes we struggle to caplitalize on that.

The team is definitely concerned and working through some things with Moss. To deny that is literally to be in denial. That the concerns are being lost in the polarization that followed Sunday's game is not surprising because Randy has always been a polarizing subject among fans and media. We didn't get him for a 4th and he didn't have to beg for a prove it shot for no reason whatsoever beyond being misunderstood. He's never been the kind of vocal disruptive force another mercurial WR has been. He also hasn't really faced adversity here until this season. Sure, it sucked losing Brady last season and he showed the effects of that disappointment early on, but he regrouped and stepped up as a vocal leader on a team with almost no expectations. This season, with Brady back, I think struggling to 11 wins is daunting for a guy with lofty aspirations as well as a target on his back and a biological clock ticking.

I think as much as he loves the game you won't see Moss hanging around into his dotage because he is hyper sensitive to criticism and he's made plenty of money and he doesn't want to end his days as someone's decoy. So I think he's daunted by how hard it already has become to win once even on a team that appeared perpetually poised to. Brady is imploring him to get over or past it and just focus on making every play you possibly can because any one of them might be the one thing that turns this season around.

Belichick said he and Randy talked after Wednesday and he felt they cleared the air and being sent home was not an issue. Faulk claimed it remained an issue because of the way the media portrayed it. There was a shot of Belichick eyeballing Moss as he left the field after one play and it was one of those pictures that says a thousand words, amongst which clearly was wtf is going on with him... That shot was not on the 22 tape I'm sure, but that's doesn't mean it isn't an ongoing concern.

 

[emoney_33]

Mo, I have not heard anyone say Moss IS frustrated as an ongoing thing. He was frustrated during the game, especially after the fumble and INT. He was probably frustrated as well that the gameplan in the 2nd half required not looking for him. He understood it was best for the team and continued to play decoy.

There is no evidence that Brady has any frustration "with Randy's frustration", so I don't know where that is coming from.

Your entire post is filled with assumptions, reading into and nitpicking comments, judging an "eye stare" of sorts, and completely lacking factual backing. I'm sorry, you are a great poster and you offer a lot of insight into the game and the Patriots, but you are completely off the mark in your analysis regarding Randy Moss.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Mo, I have not heard anyone say Moss IS frustrated as an ongoing thing. He was frustrated during the game, especially after the fumble and INT. He was probably frustrated as well that the gameplan in the 2nd half required not looking for him. He understood it was best for the team and continued to play decoy.

There is no evidence that Brady has any frustration "with Randy's frustration", so I don't know where that is coming from.

Your entire post is filled with assumptions, reading into and nitpicking comments, judging an "eye stare" of sorts, and completely lacking factual backing. I'm sorry, you are a great poster and you offer a lot of insight into the game and the Patriots, but you are completely off the mark in your analysis regarding Randy Moss.

My goodness, emoney_ 33. You have spent the entire week defending Moss (rightfully so in the "dogging" arguement) but IMO you are off base in pretenting that nothing is bothering the man. Look at the facts.

-Brady calls him out in a pratice after the Indy game. Moss calls him and says he is upset. They air it out.

-BB and Moss talk things over on Wed.

-Moss says behind in Miami

-Documented that he has had health issues (back and shoulder)

-Has missed multiple practices -all excused as "non-injury related"

-He has 4 consecutive games where he bascially is putting up numbers that are 1/2 of his regular production from the prior 9 games.

-BB sends him home with 3 other players who are not performing as expected/showing up late to a 8am meeting.

Without committing to an actual position, do you see a trend here? Would you agree that there are enough events to be concerned about Moss long-term?

We can all agree he is not dogging it. But there is no doubt something is impacting the man's performance.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

ESPN Radio - SuperStream Player

Link to the audio.

Thanks for the link. After listening to it I find while Jaws debunked the kneejerk categorizations of Moss giving no effort or quitting on the team, he did not deny there are examples for which there is no excuse for lack of effort or focus. He wanted to blame Brady on the INT, said he should never have attempted a pass into that coverage, but he also allowed that Moss gave up on the route based on coverage. QB's win games making plays into the teeth of right coverage when their receivers exhibit focus and determination in making a tough play. It isn't always easy to win in this league...

Jaws also claimed that Moss was covered with safety help over the top on all but 3 plays in this game. Given our options not going to him at all would be pretty limiting. He also claimed this was somehow different that what other teams have done in doubling Welker most of the season...

 

[emoney_33]

My goodness, emoney_ 33. You have spent the entire week defending Moss (rightfully so in the "dogging" arguement) but IMO you are off base in pretenting that nothing is bothering the man.

As you said I was correct this entire week, so you only help my case. I never said "nothing is bothering him". I have no idea, but the notion that he has some ongoing "frustration" is what I was disputing. Who knows what if anything is bothering him physically or mentally. I won't pretend to be an armchair psychologist.

Without committing to an actual position, do you see a trend here?

Not really. "trend" has certain connotations, Moss has had a stretch of games where his personal production hasn't been what it usually is, but it HAPPENS.

Would you agree that there are enough events to be concerned about Moss long-term?

Not at all.

We can all agree he is not dogging it. But there is no doubt something is impacting the man's performance.

If it continues long-term you'll have a point. No Cardinals fans get "worried" when Fitzgerald has a bad game. No Colts fans get "worried" when Wayne has a bad game.

Nothing that we KNOW justifies any worrying about Moss' frame of mind. I'm worried/confused about AD's frame of mind though.

 

[emoney_33]

Thanks for the link. After listening to it I find while Jaws debunked the kneejerk categorizations of Moss giving no effort or quitting on the team, he did not deny there are examples for which there is no excuse for lack of effort or focus. He wanted to blame Brady on the INT, said he should never have attempted a pass into that coverage, but he also allowed that Moss gave up on the route based on coverage. QB's win games making plays into the teeth of right coverage when their receivers exhibit focus and determination in making a tough play. It isn't always easy to win in this league...

Did he note that the DB was playing outside and that it just might be possible that Moss adjusted his route expecting that if a throw came it would go inside?

Jaws also claimed that Moss was covered with safety help over the top on all but 3 plays in this game. Given our options not going to him at all would be pretty limiting. He also claimed this was somehow different that what other teams have done in doubling Welker most of the season...

In the second half I don't think Brady looked towards him much at all. Yet his effort opened up a great 2nd half for Welker and Watson.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Did he note that the DB was playing outside and that it just might be possible that Moss adjusted his route expecting that if a throw came it would go inside?

No, he didn't. He conceded that Moss apparently decided he was not the target based on coverage. And he says there is no excuse for that.



In the second half I don't think Brady looked towards him much at all. Yet his effort opened up a great 2nd half for Welker and Watson.

He didn't in part because on their limited opportunities he didn't make the play. Because of the lack of viable alternatives on this particular team it is imperative Moss remain a legitimate target. That has been the mantra all season, and Brady has been talking about guys fighting through frustration for a couple of weeks now.

It would be smashing if we could simply move on and lean on the ground game and the TE's but there are problems inherent with that kind of strategic shift on this team too that some of us have long noted, particularly facing some of our opposition who might be inclined to have a field day (or half) against our young secondary absent a pass rush.

 

[emoney_33]

No, he didn't. He conceded that Moss apparently decided he was not the target based on coverage. And he says there is no excuse for that.

So deciding he wasn't the target is more likely than adjusting to outside coverage by expecting the ball inside? Why?

He didn't in part because on their limited opportunities he didn't make the play. Because of the lack of viable alternatives on this particular team it is imperative Moss remain a legitimate target. That has been the mantra all season, and Brady has been talking about guys fighting through frustration for a couple of weeks now.

In the 2nd half Moss wasn't really targeted, but in the 2nd half the offense still played extremely well. This team has always let the coverages dictate how they play offense. They don't line up and bash their heads against a wall trying to do what they want to do. If teams want to keep doubling and tripling Moss, then other options will get the ball. It WORKED on Sunday.

Moss was a legitimate target on Sunday, but others were BETTER targets because of the way the defense played. You may have a point if Welker and Watson weren't getting opened and moving the chains. I agree Moss is needed in this offense, but there's nothing worrying me that he won't continue to be. Brady is having his 2nd best statistical season.

 

[SVN]

listening to D&C with adam shefter they think hoge is making it up to get attention. only in boston do the local media want players to fail ....just disgusting..

Adam Schefter, ESPN on WEEI

 

[Rob0729]

Thanks for the link. After listening to it I find while Jaws debunked the kneejerk categorizations of Moss giving no effort or quitting on the team, he did not deny there are examples for which there is no excuse for lack of effort or focus. He wanted to blame Brady on the INT, said he should never have attempted a pass into that coverage, but he also allowed that Moss gave up on the route based on coverage. QB's win games making plays into the teeth of right coverage when their receivers exhibit focus and determination in making a tough play. It isn't always easy to win in this league...

Jaws also claimed that Moss was covered with safety help over the top on all but 3 plays in this game. Given our options not going to him at all would be pretty limiting. He also claimed this was somehow different that what other teams have done in doubling Welker most of the season...

Well, this is why I trust Jaws and not Hoge for these types of analysis. Hoge to make his point tried to make excuses for the plays that Moss actually did poorly on (at least as people have described it since I didn't hear his analysis on individual plays). Jaws has no problem claiming that Moss didn't do all he could have on the INT while still getting his his point across.

This is why Hoge is getting ridiculed for his analysis. He took a good argument, went way overboard and turned it into a farce. Jaws pointed out the same thing, but didn't make grandieous statements like this was one of Moss' best games away from the ball ever or excuse mental errors/poor effort on individual plays.

 

[RobertWeathers]

As you said I was correct this entire week, so you only help my case. I never said "nothing is bothering him". I have no idea, but the notion that he has some ongoing "frustration" is what I was disputing. Who knows what if anything is bothering him physically or mentally. I won't pretend to be an armchair psychologist. .

What case? Your case all week was that he wasn't dogging it, which I agree with you on. The facts that I present have nothing to do with your case. It's a whole new arguement. This is observing circumstances and events to formulate an educated assessement of an athlete's drop in performamance for a month now.

Brady has inferenced repeatedly that Moss is frustrated and that he needs to "fight through it"- whatever through it is. According to your logic. I suppose that data point shouldn't be factored in to the assesement.

Not really. "trend" has certain connotations, Moss has had a stretch of games where his personal production hasn't been what it usually is, but it HAPPENS. .

Ok. Circumstances that are cumulative. Nice duck.

If it continues long-term you'll have a point. No Cardinals fans get "worried" when Fitzgerald has a bad game. No Colts fans get "worried" when Wayne has a bad game. .

One game, no. 2, no, 3 maybe. 4 games is long-term for someone as elite and prolific as Moss who has produced consistiently as a Pat. Clearly when you factor in the facts as I have listed, and the drop in production, it is plausible to conclude that something is bothering him.

Nothing that we KNOW justifies any worrying about Moss' frame of mind. I'm worried/confused about AD's frame of mind though.

You are in complete denial in not acknowledging that something is bothering Randy. Amazing.

 

[emoney_33]

The facts that I present have nothing to do with your case. It's a whole new arguement. This is observing circumstances and events to formulate an educated assessement of an athlete's drop in performamance for a month now.

There is no "educated assesment" going on here with this ongoing frustration argument. There are huge assumptions and conclusion jumping going on. If in fact you wanted to begin to formulate an educate assessment, you could find as much as you could in the "good" games vs. the "bad" games and come up with multiple possibilities of why his production didn't excel at a perfectly constant rate. Instead comments are nitpicked, body language is argued, miniscule pieces of leaked information are argued. Mo seemingly went so far as to insinuate that Moss is no longer happy (here?) and will seek a contract somewhere (or retire soon?) because he's tired of being a "decoy".

Brady has inferenced repeatedly that Moss is frustrated and that he needs to "fight through it"- whatever through it is. According to your logic. I suppose that data point shouldn't be factored in to the assesement.

Brady stated that Moss does indeed fight through "it". The IT is frustration during a game, which all players get. Troy Brown also said that Tom says these kinds of things to everyone and has to him in the past when he was on the team as well.

Ok. Circumstances that are cumulative. Nice duck.

There is no ducking. It happens, receivers can have "bad" games and "bad" stretches. There are many reasons for why this could be the least likely being an emotional issue with Moss. However because of his longstanding reputation, this the conclusion that everyone LEAPS to whenever he has a bad game or even a bad PLAY.

One game, no. 2, no, 3 maybe. 4 games is long-term for someone as elite and prolific as Moss who has produced consistiently as a Pat. Clearly when you factor in the facts as I have listed, and the drop in production, it is plausible to conclude that something is bothering him.

Plausible yes, likely no.

You are in complete denial in not acknowledging that something is bothering Randy. Amazing.

Yea just like I'm in denial that Moss obviously dogged it on Sunday. What's amazing is the tendency around here to make something out of nothing and ignore all evidence against it.

Here are some additional facts for you:

* Moss runs routes that take longer to develop
* TEs generally have been used to help block and the o-line has struggled mightily at times
* We have NO other deep threat running routes
* Defenses give a lot of effort to covering Moss with double and triple teams
* Opposing defenses have more tape to study late in a season and can come up with better gameplans.

You expect greatness from Moss at all times, and if he doesn't produce the personal statistics, why does it have to be because of some emotional instability?

 

[RobertWeathers]

There is no "educated assesment" going on here with this ongoing frustration argument. There are huge assumptions and conclusion jumping going on. If in fact you wanted to begin to formulate an educate assessment, you could find as much as you could in the "good" games vs. the "bad" games and come up with multiple possibilities of why his production didn't excel at a perfectly constant rate. Instead comments are nitpicked, body language is argued, miniscule pieces of leaked information are argued. Mo seemingly went so far as to insinuate that Moss is no longer happy (here?) and will seek a contract somewhere (or retire soon?) because he's tired of being a "decoy".

With regard to body language,etc. I have said nothing of the sort. In my post, I have stated facts. Argue with my facts, not Mo's. You are out of the scope of the arguement.

Brady stated that Moss does indeed fight through "it". The IT is frustration during a game, which all players get. Troy Brown also said that Tom says these kinds of things to everyone and has to him in the past when he was on the team as well.

4 games in a row. C'mon.

There is no ducking. It happens, receivers can have "bad" games and "bad" stretches. There are many reasons for why this could be the least likely being an emotional issue with Moss. However because of his longstanding reputation, this the conclusion that everyone LEAPS to whenever he has a bad game or even a bad PLAY.

I in no have stated that he has an emotional issue. Again, you are changing the scope of my arguement. I am saying that "something" is bothering him and the facts that I present conclude that over the past month (and if you incude his injury report listings with back and shoulder ailments, that only adds to it.) demonstrate that something is bothering him.

Plausible yes, likely no.

Unreal.

Yea just like I'm in denial that Moss obviously dogged it on Sunday. What's amazing is the tendency around here to make something out of nothing and ignore all evidence against it.

Plenty of evidence has been presented and a smoking gun which is Moss' performance since the Indy game. What I find absolutely amazing is that you REFUSE to acknowledge that something is bothering Moss.

Here are some additional facts for you:

* Moss runs routes that take longer to develop
* TEs generally have been used to help block and the o-line has struggled mightily at times
* We have NO other deep threat running routes
* Defenses give a lot of effort to covering Moss with double and triple teams
* Opposing defenses have more tape to study late in a season and can come up with better gameplans.

Well aware of this. Thank you.

You expect greatness from Moss at all times, and if he doesn't produce the personal statistics, why does it have to be because of some emotional instability?

Please don't assume what I expect of Moss and please don't assume that I think he is emotionally unstable. I've stated neither. I am going by his performance over the last month has been grossly below his AVERAGE from the prior 9 games + what I have previously stated to conclude that SOMETHING is impeading his performance. Could be playcalling. Could be injury? Could be frustration. Could be an off-the-field issue. Who knows.

My problem with your position is that you publically refuse to acknowledge that SOMETHING is impacting his performance. You always drift away from stating a position and you counter with accusing me of playing the "dogging" and "emotionally fragile" card.