Welcome to PatsFans.com

Jason Taylor or Richard Seymour?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Aqua4Ever04, Nov 20, 2006.

  1. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    2,934
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Hey all. I remember being here preseason and talking about the best DL men in football. A lot of Pats fans said they would take Seymour over any one in the NFL and of course, I said I'd take Taylor. So my question is, who would you guys take now?

    Jason Taylor

    39 tackles 9 sacks 7 forced fumbles 2 INTs both for TDs

    Richard Seymour

    21 tackles 3 sacks ?forced fumbles 0 INT

    I'm not trying to start any smack, I just want to know what you guys think of Taylor.
  2. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,658
    Likes Received:
    15
    Ratings:
    +15 / 0 / -0

    Taylor is a DE in a 4-3, the equivalent of OLB in the Pats' scheme. Seymour plays DE in a 3-4, the equivalent of DT in Miami's scheme. Comparing the two is like comparing Strahan and John Henderson. I personally believe that J. Taylor is playing the best 4-3 DE in the league and should be the defensive player of the year this season if his current level of play continues.
  3. The Gr8est

    The Gr8est Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,770
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    I fully expect to see Taylor come to New England once he is a FA to get his ring. He really seems on excellent terms with many members of the Patriots' organization...and he has my permission to bring Wes Welker with him.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2006
  4. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    15,209
    Likes Received:
    61
    Ratings:
    +97 / 2 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Jason Taylor is just the greatest football player ever. Is that what you were looking for?
  5. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,632
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +27 / 8 / -1

    Jason Taylor is so good. 72 Fish allowed him to drink with them last night.
  6. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    24,581
    Likes Received:
    62
    Ratings:
    +110 / 7 / -10

    You can't compare Seymour and Taylor directly since they don't play the same position. As a 3-4 DE with 2 gap responsibility Seymour will never have the stats of a 4-3 DE.

    That said I have always loved Taylor's game. Especially his effort. When the FIns beat the Pats in Dec whne they were what 3-11? The PAts had a big lead and Taylor could have let up, he single handedly turned the game around. Could be a HOF player.

    I would to have him as a 3-4 OLB he would be better than Willie McGinest was IMO.
  7. kptmorgan04

    kptmorgan04 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    could be a HOF player if he ever got out of the dumps of miami... it is a hard league to get recognized when your team is in the cellar year in an year out.

    they are different players, compare him to Colvin, I would take taylor
  8. kolbitr

    kolbitr Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    653
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    Not sure what you are thinking here; hoping to get a chorus of "Taylor sux"?

    He is a superb player having a monster season...especially the past four games or so, it seems to me. He has begun to carry the Dolphins. And, Seymour is having an off-season, in a way, for him.

    But it is a bit unfair to compare them statistically...they are asked to do very different things, and Seymour's stats have *always* been worse than comparable linemen. They will probably *always* be so...but he's not a perrennial pro-bowler because of stats. He is simply a superb player in his own right. And I suspect Taylor would be among the first to say so.
  9. kolbitr

    kolbitr Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    653
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0


    That would be a dream, but unfair to Miami. Welker has been one of the consistent bright spots for that team this year. But he is dynamic. A young Tim Dwight, no?
  10. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    20,401
    Likes Received:
    110
    Ratings:
    +180 / 4 / -5

    I get your drift, but for him to really be Tim Dwight he'd have to have two seasons derailed by a punctured lung. . . . :eek:
  11. Aqua4Ever04

    Aqua4Ever04 Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    2,934
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    No way that would ever happn. He will retire a Dolphins.

    As for hall of fame there is no doubt. He has 100+ sacks and scored the most TDs ever by a D-Lineman. He is a big play waiting to happen and the best player on that side of the ball in football right now.

    And for you guys trying to fire me up, I'm not trying to start anything. I just want to see if your opinions have changed.
  12. italia44

    italia44 Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,287
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Noone's trying to fire you up....it's just
    that you have your 'fins sunglasses on and you can't see anything else.

    1.There's not a GM in football who would take Taylor over Seymour,who is only 26 yrs.old

    2.Retire as a Dolphin?.....be careful...
    He's going to be a FA.....with no chance of reaching a SB with that aging team.Also,Belichick absolutely loves him....With our cap space and the chance for a ring,Taylor would jump at the chance to play for the Pats.

    3.Taylor would replace Colvin in NE's 3-4 defense.Who would you rather pay
    $5-6 million......Colvin or Taylor?
    I'll pay Taylor.

    4.There's bad blood flowing in Miami,
    Bad drafts.....Culpepper.....no QB of the future.Saban's going to have a stroke,going by his recent press conferences.

    If SP/BB wan't Taylor...they'll get him.

    To say this is impossible,is just,"whistling past the graveyard."
  13. RayClay

    RayClay On the Roster

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
    Messages:
    17,912
    Likes Received:
    169
    Ratings:
    +361 / 6 / -8

    #75 Jersey

    I don't think there's any opinions to change. From what I read, we all think he's a great 4-3 pass rushing end. We don't have that position on our team.

    He'd need to learn linebacking responsibilities to play here.

    Our 3 Linemen's job is to tie up 5 offensive linemen. Seymour will never get stats here. On a 4-3 he'd play tackle. He outweighs Taylor by about 50-60 Lbs.
  14. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,840
    Likes Received:
    90
    Ratings:
    +151 / 3 / -19

    I am a Seymour apologists, and see the same argument on this board and this is just a reframing of the same stuff over and over again. Seymour does not often show up in the box score, but when I get an opportunity to get to a game I always key on him.. nothing short of incredible, usually double teamed he is a man amongst boys often. He makes Wilfork and Warren better, seldom makes an obvious mistake. If there was a way of crediting assists like they do in hockey he would be a leader in this category.

    I will never forget the Jacksonville game a couple of years ago in Foxboro, right after his grandfather died, he was held out for the 1st quarter because he did not practice on Friday. When he came in he harassed Leftwich for 3 consecutive plays while the Jags were in the red zone, I think he got 2 sacks. Never seen a performance like that before or since, he is consistent, intelligent. Not to take anything aways from Taylor, who I also admire, but it is like comparing raisins and grapefruit.
  15. frankiesfly

    frankiesfly Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,357
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    aqua the closet pats fan
  16. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2004
    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    20
    Ratings:
    +24 / 0 / -1

    #17 Jersey

    My opinion never changes - you welched on a bet and you are scum.
  17. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,769
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    apples are so much better than oranges. you don't have to peel apples and there isn't any pulp in apple juice.

    no way the dolphins wouldn't franchise Taylor if he got to free agency. i hold out little hope of him wearing a Pats uni until he enters the Seau phase of his career.
  18. The Gr8est

    The Gr8est Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    2,770
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    There's no way the Dolphins can franchise ALL of their great players....Oh wait!
  19. 5 Rings for Brady!!

    5 Rings for Brady!! Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,753
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    AQUATEEN: If you are sincerely trying to get an answer then try to put your thinking cap on for a minute. I know it's tough when you are barely out of your childhood to fully understand the years of tradition and knowledge in a complicated game like football, so you might as well make an effort to start now.

    1) They play DIFFERENT positions. Perhaps you still don't understand that Seymour is supposed to hold his ground at the line of scrimmage against two 350 pound men while Jason is simply supposed to slip in between those big guys with as little contact as possible and get straight to the QB on every play. Taylor is not man enough to do what Seymour does, he is not strong enough to take on a single block in a two gap system and hold his ground, let alone take on double and often triple teams when the TE or FB gets involved. THIS IS THE REASON THAT TAYLOR GOT DEMOTED TO OUTSIDE LINEBACKER IN YOUR SYSTEM, BECAUSE HE CANNOT PHYSICALLY DO WHAT A DEFENSE TACKLE DOES. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.

    You don't compare a linebacker who runs free on every play to a Defense Tackle who has RESPONSIBILITIES that take priority over getting sacks.

    I don't care if Taylor has more tackles or whatever, you might as well compare him to a running back or a kicker or the guy that gives out Gatorade, those are also DIFFERENT POSITIONS WITH DIFFERENT RESPONSIBILITIES.

    2) Seymour suffered a gruesome injury, with an elbow dislocation when his arm was trampled on and bent out of joint. He is playing essentially one handed right now and you want to compare stats. Do you not even realize that Seymour is injuried?

    3) Seymour plays a position of need on this team and has helped us win three superbowls and the NFL consecutive win streak of all time as well as going 10-1 in the playoffs. Why the hell would we change that formula? Taylor would not have solidified our DT position since he is a LB in a two gap defense based on controlling the line of scrimmage, in other words he would have played Willie McGinnest's position or Vrabel's position all these years, not Seymour's position because he is not physically strong enough or big enough or tough enough. We did just fine with the LBs we had, in fact Vrabel had 10 sacks in 2003 at Taylor's current position, and during the same time period, Wille has been simply awesome and has gone to the Pro Bowl.

    So why on earth would we have chosen Taylor over our best Defensive Lineman who controlled our line of scrimmage this whole time?

    4) We can find more than a dozen outside linebackers in the league that can make plays. How many Defensive linemen do what Seymour does in a TWO GAP SYSTEM? Less than a handful.

    5) If you want to compare big play linebackers, you will find that all our linebackers have impressive stats through the years. Bruschi has made a ton of huge plays, Seau, Vrabel and Colvin are all good players. If you want to compare Taylor to a linebacker than at least you are comparing similiar positions.

    6) Taylor could end up as a Patriot anyways in the long run when you consider how much more he openly respects our organization and QB than yours. He has a man crush on Brady, everybody knows that.

    Taylor is a great player and may be the best currently at what he does. If he was on our team, he would not play Seymour's position and Seymour would not play Taylor's position. The fact is that in our system Seymour has more value. If it ain't broken, why are we gonna fix it?

    I think you need to learn a lot about the game of football, because you sound like an 18 year old kid, not a grown up, when you ask silly hypothetical questions which simply show you don't fundamentally understand much about football.
  20. arrellbee

    arrellbee Rookie

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    Messages:
    1,094
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Can't spell it out much better than this. If you wanted to get some serious football discussion, Aqua, I think you succeeded.

    The other thing that you may want to consider, Aqua.

    I get the impression that you are inclined to value a player for his individual performance. That is certainly one way of interest to look at it. But limiting your evaluation to just that aspect probably misses a hugely significant point - and one that greatly applies to your preoccupation at the start of this season about winning games and therefore the division and playoffs etc. And that other aspect is how the individual player contributes to the effectiveness of the unit as a whole. You can make some personal judgments about how much an individual contributes, but it's a pretty gray thing to try to do. But if the unit doesn't do so well, you CAN'T ignore the possibility that a particular player, while having great individual stats, is coming up a little short in contributing to the bottom line success. As I say, no way you can really tell, but it's something to think about. In the case of the Pats and Dolphin defenses of which Taylor and Seymour are key parts:

    Rushing yardage against:
    - Pats 2nd and Dolphins 12th

    Rushing TDs against:
    - Pats 2nd and Dolphins 12th

    Passing TDs against:
    - Pats 2nd and Dolphins 18th

    Passing TDs and Rushing TDs are probably especially significant aspects of defensive line play.

    Again, this is not saying that Taylor is any major part of the Dolphins defensive effectiveness or lack thereof. But you can't give him a free pass either.

    Taylor is a superb talent and a pretty sure HOF entry.
    For putting together a winning defense (the bottom line) I would chose Seymour as a better building block, better scheme effectiveness enhancer, and more versatile role contribution of 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE, and 4-3 DT.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>