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Jason Pierre-Paul

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by mayoclinic, Oct 22, 2009.

  1. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ochmed has been on the Carlos Dunlap bandwagon for a long time now. I'm going to go out on a limb and tout a different physical freak, DE Jason Pierre-Paul from USF, a JUCO transfer who plays alongside George Selvie.

    Pierre-Paul is 6-6" 265# from Haiti (nicknamed the "Haitian Sensation" as a teenager) with supposed 4.60 speed and an incredible 81" wingspan. He has a terrific motor, decent technique (though still a bit raw) for his level of experience, good ball skills, and the ability to alter passes and block passing lanes. Nate Allen got an interception against Cincinnati due to a pass which Pierre-Paul altered. Against Florida St. he made a one-handed interception. His length, speed and ability to run down opposing players has drawn comparisons to a young Javon Kearse.

    He has been getting some attention recently due to his play, and is considered a late 1st/early 2nd round guy if he comes out early in 2010, and a sure-fire top 10 guy if he waits till 2011. Mel Kiper currently has him #12 on his big board, and NFP ranks him #24 in their Super 30.

    Here's what some folks have to say about Pierre-Paul:

    1. Mel Kiper, ESPN has ranked Pierre-Paul as his 2nd DE after Carlos Dunlap and calls him an "explosive, natural pass-rusher".

    Pierre-Paul Moving Up on NFL Draft Board Says Kiper | theledger.com | The Ledger | Lakeland, FL

    2. Nolan Nawrocki, ProFootballWeekly:

    "The premium placed on pass rushers tends to lead many underclassmen out of school early when they possess rare gifts that cannot be coached. Julius Peppers and Mario Williams were both drafted among the top two picks not because of their consistent performance in college but because of their exceptional upside. In this year's draft, Florida's Carlos Dunlap and South Florida's Jason Pierre-Paul both possess unique physical skill sets — and Paul really put himself on the map the past two weeks against Florida State and Syracuse, when he snagged a one-handed interception and returned it for an 18-yard TD. He has vines for arms and exceptional athletic ability, comparable to a young Jevon Kearse. Physically, Dunlap looked like he could jump to the pros from the time he entered the Florida program, possessing the rare size and wingspan to line up anywhere along the line, but his motor tends to idle and he still has not figured out how to use his hands or play with the type of power he possesses."

    ProFootballWeekly.com - Clemson DE Sapp's talent outweighs production

    3. Wes Bunting from the National Football Post raved about Pierre-Paul following the Cincinnati game:

    "What a freak (and I mean that in a good way)

    South Florida defensive end Jason Pierre-Paul has to be one of the toughest linemen in the nation to block. His combination of athleticism, power and length gives him the ability to routinely stack and shed in all areas of the game. Against Cincinnati, he was consistently able to set the edge in the run game, control blockers at the point of attack and make his way toward the ball. And in the pass game, he showcased an impressive first step for his size off the edge and loves to go to his rip move to keep blockers from getting their hands on him. He’s still very raw with his instincts, stance and overall hand technique, but the kid has an incredible-looking frame and features an amazing 81-inch wingspan. He finished with five tackles, two tackles for loss, two quarterback hurries and was consistently able to slip blocks and work his way toward the football. I could see him developing into something special as either a 4-3 or 3-4 defensive end."

    Scout?s notebook: Thursday review | National Football Post

    4. Matt Maguire from Walter Football raves about Pierre-Paul:

    "When you play this well, you deserve a nickname. We gave Darrius Heyward-Bey "DHB" - Jean Pierre-Paul is officialy "JPP" on this Web site.

    JPP simply was dominant against Cincinnati and flashed some serious talent and a competitive attitude. I'm not going to give him a first-round grade until I see another game or two, but he should definitely be on everyone's radar.

    I haven't seen a defensive end this year that did a better job of lowering his shoulder without losing any speed. JPP can defintely run the arc and he has explosive speed off the edge. He also did a great job with his hands once getting full extension against the offensive lineman before disengaging to make the tackle for a 1-yard gain. It was textbook technique.

    I love his hustle and he gives that second effort you look for. He shows an ability to rush from the two-point stance, so the 3-4 teams are certainly going to watch if he can play in space and show some pass coverage ability. I love his flexbility and balance.

    JPP looks like a well-rounded player (the anti-Carlos Dunlap), but like I said earlier, I just don't fall in love with a player after one game of film. All of this said, I can't wait to see his next game tape. This might be the dominant defensive end this draft is currently lacking."

    WalterFootball.com: Matt McGuire's 2010 NFL Draft Stock: Week 7

    In contrast, Maguire calls Dunlap Mr. Overated citing a lack of consistency, effort, agility and playmaking.

    WalterFootball.com: The NFL Matt Draft - Matt McGuire's NFL Draft Blog

    I think that Pierre-Paul is the most intriguing guy to come along in a while. It's still early and he's raw, but his length, speed, ability to man the edge and take on blockers, ball skills, ability to block passing lanes, and pass rushing ability make him the most intriguing elephant prospect to come along in a while. If he comes out this year I would take a long look at him as a possible 1st round pick.
  2. reamer

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    Mayo, you're always one step ahead of me. :)

    I remember thinking a few weeks ago that this kid was intriguing, but very raw. I didn't really put much stock into his performances, but I quickly developed a keen interest after I saw a few of the very reviews that you posted here. Naturally, you were smart enough to post about it before I got around to sharing the info. I will definitely keep a close eye on his development.

    Oh, and I have several comments for my running commentary thread, if I can find some time tonight. I've watched several games, and I'm way overdue.
  3. cstjohn17

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    Great research and find, he can join the ranks of Chris Long, Connor Barwin as favorites of PatsFans.com.

    Nice job.
  4. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    After getting burned on Barwin last year I'm reluctant to go on the "binky" bandwagon this year. But JPP is certainly very intriguing, and I hope to see more of him. He appears to have terrific size, length, a great motor, good technical skills, great wingspan, and good hands. He also appears to be able to rush the passer, block the passing lanes, defend the pass, take on and disengage from blockers, set the edge and play the run. Sounds too good to be true, and probably isn't, but he definitely bears watching.

    I do think that BB generally prefers his OLBs to be in the 255-275 lb. range as compared with the 240-250 lb. range. McGinest was 270+ lbs, Vrabel 260-265, and AD 270. Colvin was in the 250-255 lb. range but fairly solid against the run. Woods is 250+ and Ninkovich 255. Shawn Crable was 245 lbs. but at 6'5" I think most people expected him to put on 20 lbs. and play at around 260-265 lbs. His failure to bulk up and get stronger seems to have held him back.

    Smaller 3-4 OLBs like James Harrison and Elvis Dumervil are obviously very productive in other systems, but I don't see the Pats going that route, which is why I don't see us going after players like Ricky Sapp (6'4" 248#), George Selvie (6'4" 245#), Von Miller (6'2" 240#), Brandon Lang (6'4" 245#), etc. None of those guys seem to have the size or physicality to play the run and set the edge. There are some in-between guys like Sergio Kindle (6'4" 254#), Jerry Hughes (6'2" 257#), Eric Norwood (6'1" 252#), Jason Worilds (6'2" 252#), but I think that unless these guys show they are particularly good at taking on blockers and setting the edge that they are not likely to be our main focus.

    I really see BB going after guys who are currently looked at mainly as 4-3 DE's right now rather than as "hydrids" or "tweeners". I especially think this given that we have used more 4-3 looks this year, and these kind of players could easily play 4-3 DE as well. The kind of guys I have in mind include JPP, and also Derrick Morgan from Georgia Tech (6'4", 270# with a terrific motor, very much in the Chris Long mold), and Everson Griffin from USC (6'3", 270+# with exceptional speed and agility for his size, somewhat in the Terrell Suggs mold). Ochmed would include Carlos Dunlap, but I'm not a fan and don't think he has the agility to play OLB for us.

    I think Chris Long would have been a great conversion project, but he went much too high in the draft. With 3-4 of these kids coming out, the odds are that one or more could last until we pick in the late 1st. With a likely early 2nd round pick there's even the chance that we could have a shot at 2 of them, which would be phenomenal.
  5. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Bunting has him 24th overall right now :

    The NFP Super 30 | National Football Post

    I expect a couple of high upside DE/OLB types in this draft, we have enough to get through the season but we need more talented young guys - depending partly on their current feelings towards Crable.
  6. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I mentioned that in my OP. They have Everson Griffin 21 and Derrick Morgan 22. Those 3 guys are very intriguing.
  7. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sorry, I looked at the links but didn't see it. I still say what I did last offseason that I don't expect a DE to OLB conversion guy to be taken high as it adds more risk to the already risky draft process. I won't expect us to take one before our own #2 but to have taken a pure DE prospect before then. JPP's size is very intriguing and reminiscent of McGinnest though.
  8. SidelineSid

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    To be honest, I was never really impressed with Chris Long. I thought he was too small to play DE in a 4-3, and too slow to play outside linebacker in a 3-4. However, it looks like you may be getting a second chance at your conversion project. He doesn't seem to be doing well with the Rams, and has been spending a lot of time on their bench. For a mid to late round draft choice, he could be had pretty cheaply.
  9. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not sure what you mean. I haven't heard anything so far to suggest that the Rams are down on Chris Long, much less that he could be "had pretty cheaply". What does "for a mid to late round draft choice" mean? Are you suggesting that the Rams would have traded him for a mid to late round draft pick? That would have been crazy, and it would have been absurd not to bite if that were the case.

    You may be correct - Long may not be fast or agile enough to play 3-4 OLB. I think that's a valid question, and not one that was worth exploring at the cost it would have taken to get him in 2008. But he's certainly seems as good a candidate as Mike Vrabel was when we first got him after being cut by Pittsburgh. He has great strength, ability to set the edge and hold the point of attack, good ball skills, and a great motor. He may not be an elite pass rusher off the edge, but I think that he would merit consideration if the price were not too high. But everything I've heard suggests that he's doing fine for St. Louis, and is not available.
  10. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I should have included 6'5" 265# Greg Hardy in my list of bigger DE's who would make potential 3-4 OLB conversions in the Pats system. There's an interview with him today on NFLdraftcountdown:

    Draft Countdown - Greg Hardy Interview

    Hardy specifically mentions that he has prior experience at LB, and would be comfortable playing in space.

    And one more guy to mention ... North Carolina true sophomore Robert Quinn, 6'5" 260# with long arms, somewhat like Jason Pierre-Paul in terms of build and athleticism. Wes Bunting from the National Football Post had this to say about him:

    "Typically, I don’t like to start evaluating any college player until he’s at least eligible for the draft. However, the play of North Carolina sophomore defensive end Robert Quinn has been nothing short of brilliant this season and definitely deserves a mention. Quinn has already recorded seven sacks, 11 tackles for loss and 32 total tackles, and he’s been a consistent force in both the run and pass game. Quinn is a tall, long-armed 6-5, 260-pound lineman who not only is the best defensive lineman on the Tar Heels talented front four, but he grades out just as highly as any defensive end in the country. He showcases an impressive first step off the snap, keeps his pad level down when shooting gaps inside and closes instantly on the football. He’s still a bit raw and will get too high at times on contact, but Quinn is a former state champion wrester who exhibits quick hands, impressive natural strength at the point of attack and looks like a guy capable of developing into an impact NFL defensive lineman."

    Thursday night primer | National Football Post

    Quinn's obviously not eligible for the 2010 draft, but is someone to watch for 2011.

    There's an amazing number of these guys coming out - big, tall, fast, athletic. There seems to be a non-ending stream of them, which is good news for the Pats. The athleticism of guys like Pierre-Paul and Quinn is unbelievable - much faster and more athletic than someone like Chris Long. With all of the teams going to a 3-4 more and more you will see these guys getting some experience playing in space while still in college.
  11. mayoclinic

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  12. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    The OLB position in the BB defense is one position where we can identify players with the proper size and speed. However if there is one thing that BB taught us last year, it's that the tape does not lie.

    And while BB is willing to project players to a certain point, he does not appear to be willing to "retrain" or "teach" highly drafted players a new position.

    So if a player does not have tape of him doing certain things, then don't expect BB to take that player on day one.

    That's why I think BB would lean toward a Sapp of Clemson before a high upside, but raw recruit like JPP. There is tape of Sapp performing behind the LOS as opposed to a JPP who thrives off the extra attention Selvie gets.

    I think if you are throwing a name out there, you have to consider what will the tape show BB that this particular player doing on the field.
  13. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    After last year, I frankly admit that I haven't the faintest idea what BB will do. However, I don't think last year taught us any such thing. All we know is that the guys who were available last year (Matthews, Barwin, Sintim and Everette Brown) either (a) did not meet his physical criteria, (b) did not impress him suitably to make him willing to take on training them, or (c) didn't impress him enough to make him value them over other players who were available. We don't know that BB what BB would or wouldn't be willing to do with other players.

    However, there seems to be data that BB values players OLBs who can set the edge, maintain the point of attack, take on and disengage from blockers, and defend the run among other things (such as being able to rush the passer, defend the pass, block the passing lanes, and pursue). Sapp doesn't seem to have that kind of package.

    In 2007 many on this board (including yourself) were eager for the Pats to trade up for Quintin Groves from Auburn, who was very much a Rick Sapp kind of player, with experience playing behind the LOS. The Pats did not appear to go after Groves aggressively, as he was taken well within trade-up range. Nor did they apparently pursue him when Jacksonville was rumored to be shopping him over the past 2 weeks prior to the trade deadline. Last year a lot of people argued in favor of taking Clint Sintim based on his experience playing behind the LOS and versatility inside and out, but again, BB didn't bite. We don't know how much BB values experience behind the LOS in general. We do know he didn't value it enough in those players to go after them.

    I frankly have no idea what BB will do. But my personal guess is that he'll pursue guys more in the 6'4"-6'6" 260-270# range such as Pierre-Paul, Derrick Morgan, Greg Hardy, Everson Griffen and Greg Romeus as opposed to some of the smaller, quicker edge rushers such as Ricky Sapp, Sergio Kindle, Brandon Lang and Jerry Hughes. And my guess is that if he sees the value there (including the upside) that he'd be quite willing to spend a day 1 pick on a conversion. But it's just a guess.
  14. SidelineSid

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    Here is the link on Chris Long's performance: ProFootballWeekly.com - Rams DE Long keeps coming up short

    If you look on nfl.com, it states that he's only started one game this season, and I don't believe that he's hurt. This makes me believe that there may be some truth behind this analysis.

    With this considered, we could get him from them if we really wanted him for very little. Spags didn't draft him, so he has no responsibility to make him successful. In fact, the struggles of Adam Carriker add to the perception that the Rams front office weren't the best evaluators of talent. In so many words, they can trade him. It just doesn't seem feasible at this point in the season, but maybe next year, after the draft, we may consider various possibilities. I'm thinking a 3rd round pick at most. That's what i meant by mid round draft choice, since it's not on the first day.

    Also, I think Vrabel was the exception, not the rule. During our championship years, not all of our linebackers were cast offs. I don't think we should look at this guy as the next coming of Mike Vrabel. He was drafted mostly because of his character, high motor, and last name.

    After considering all of this, I'm not for the idea. I just don't think he has much value to our team. We have a bunch of high motor, players who can set the edge. We need a pass rusher, and he is not one. If he had exceptional coverage abilities, maybe you could say that he has a position on this team. The problem is that covering in this league is different than occasionally dropping into coverage in college.

    It would take time for him to adapt to the hybrid linebacker position in our two gap system. It's just the way it is.
  15. everlong

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    Chris Long is only playing on running downs @8.1M.
  16. everlong

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    Except anybody who does meet those standards will also impress the rest of the league to the same degree so they're not going to drop to where we could draft them. The Raiders pick in 2011 perhaps.
  17. mayoclinic

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    You may well be right. Both Jason Pierre-Paul and Robert Quinn could easily be top 10 picks in 2011. The problem with that has been that the cost of drafting and paying for a conversion prospect in the top 10 has been prohibitive, as was the case with Chris Long. A rookie salary scale may change that, but there's still a big difference between drafting a guy at the bottom of the 1st round/top of the 2nd and looking to convert him vs. drafting a guy top 10.

    There's a tremendous amount of DE talent in the junior and sophomore class. Carlos Dunlap (6'6", 270-290#), Derrick Morgan (6'4", 268#), Jason Pierre-Paul (6'6", 265#) and Everson Griffin (6'3", 270+#) in the Junior class all have elite athleticism for their size. In the sophomore class Robert Quinn (6'5", 260#) and DaQuan Bowers (6'4", 280#) also have tremendous upside. I'm hoping that at least some of the juniors will come out this year given the prospects of a crowded field in 2010 and a possible rookie salary cap, and that one or more will be available in the 28-40 range where we should have 2 draft picks.

    I was wowed last year with Connor Barwin's athleticism, and I still am. But there seems to be an unprecedented stream of guys coming out with incredible size, speed and athleticism at the DE position who could potentially make the switch to 3-4 OLB.

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