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Jason LaCanfora: Pats may pursue Victor Cruz


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Welker is almost never double teamed. He usually covered in a zone and defenses concede the short underneath stuff.

You clearly haven't watched much of Welker play. Teams bracket, jam, double team, do everything they can to him every game. He just knows how to get open.
 
Care to guess how many games Welker was double-teamed? Care to guess how many games Welker was held to 60 yards or less??

Welker was held to 60 or less yards 4 times on the season. The first time was in game 1 when the game plan didn't call for him to be that involved. The next 3 times were St. Louis, Houston and San Fran. For the St. Louis game, Welker (and others) were out of the game by the start of the 4th quarter. For the Houston game, the Pats focused on Lloyd and Hernandez. San Fran was the only game where Welker was "shut down" by the opposing team.

And before you go talking about the Giants, it's not like they didn't have others to step up. Like Martellus Bennett and Domenik Hixon. Are they as good as Nicks? No. But let's be real. Neither Hernandez nor Lloyd are as good as Gronkowski.

Welker is brady's binkie....if he gets confused he throws a 3 yard pass to welker for a 10 yard gain. Why? Because welker is almost always open underneath with gronk on the field. And i'd venture to say that cruz's stats would be better if he had been targetted ad much as welker this past year.
 
Well, I know Eli was sucking because he was on my fantasy team, so pretty much watched him suck every game. I know that Cruz was running shorter routes because...he has less YPC.

Besides that though, he still had 10 TDs.

oh and 18 YPC all the way down to a paltry 12 YPC...come on now.

Having a lower YPC can mean a lot of different things. His yards after the catch went from 595 in 2011 to 327 in 2012, for one. That alone would account for about 3.5 YPC to be added to his total. Aside from that, it could mean he had trouble getting open on deeper routes, or it could simply be that when he was open on deep routes, Eli went another way. It's pretty common for YPC to vary from season to season, especially when the player was a virtual unknown on his first (and most successful) year in the league.
 
You clearly haven't watched much of Welker play. Teams bracket, jam, double team, do everything they can to him every game. He just knows how to get open.

I suppose you haven't seen my signature. Your assumption is ridiculous. Welker is given a free release a lot of the time, teams give him those inside slant passes and drag routes all the time. Sure, they don't want to get juked out of their cleats, because Welker can certainly do that...



Just like the Patriots they will give up the small stuff all day long and then try to lay the wood
 
Welker is brady's binkie....if he gets confused he throws a 3 yard pass to welker for a 10 yard gain. Why? Because welker is almost always open underneath with gronk on the field. And i'd venture to say that cruz's stats would be better if he had been targetted ad much as welker this past year.

Cruz was targeted 143 times by Eli last year, and Welker was targeted 174 times by Brady. Let's assume Eli had thrown 31 more balls Cruz' way last year, and he had caught all of them (which would be a feat considering he was second in the league in drops last year). By multiplying those 31 catches by his 12.7 YPC you get 393 yards. Add that to his total of 1.092 receiving yards and you'd get 1485 yards, or 120 more than Welker.

But obviously, Cruz wouldn't catch all those 31 targets that separate him and Welker. Being that of those 143 balls thrown his way 86 were actually completed, his catch rate was 60.1%. So of those 31 targets, we could reasonably expect 19 being completed, which would net him about 242 more yards. So, had he been targeted as much as Welker he'd end up with around 1334 yards on 105 catches, which is less production than Welker had.

But even if this exercise shows that Cruz would still have a worst season than Welker had he seen the same amount of footballs thrown his way, your argument leaves out a crucial detail, which is, why do you think it is that Cruz was targeted less than Welker? Isn't it because he was open less often? And explain to me why did he have 32 less catches than Welker, while only been targeted 31 less times. His catch% was SIGNIFICANTLY lower, and his drop% was higher too. So either he wasn't open enough to get more targets or Eli didn't trust him enough to come up with the football to target him more. That's the reality of the 2012 season. Your scenario of "oh, if he received the same targets he would've been more productive" is both false, as demonstrated above, and also menaningless, because being targeted less frequently than a guy who plays the same spot as he does is, in itself, and indication that he doesn't stack up to Welker as a slot receiver.
 
Cruz was targeted 143 times by Eli last year, and Welker was targeted 174 times by Brady. Let's assume Eli had thrown 31 more balls Cruz' way last year, and he had caught all of them (which would be a feat considering he was second in the league in drops last year). By multiplying those 31 catches by his 12.7 YPC you get 393 yards. Add that to his total of 1.092 receiving yards and you'd get 1485 yards, or 120 more than Welker.

But obviously, Cruz wouldn't catch all those 31 targets that separate him and Welker. Being that of those 143 balls thrown his way 86 were actually completed, his catch rate was 60.1%. So of those 31 targets, we could reasonably expect 19 being completed, which would net him about 242 more yards. So, had he been targeted as much as Welker he'd end up with around 1334 yards on 105 catches, which is less production than Welker had.

But even if this exercise shows that Cruz would still have a worst season than Welker had he seen the same amount of footballs thrown his way, your argument leaves out a crucial detail, which is, why do you think it is that Cruz was targeted less than Welker? Isn't it because he was open less often? And explain to me why did he have 32 less catches than Welker, while only been targeted 31 less times. His catch% was SIGNIFICANTLY lower, and his drop% was higher too. So either he wasn't open enough to get more targets or Eli didn't trust him enough to come up with the football to target him more. That's the reality of the 2012 season. Your scenario of "oh, if he received the same targets he would've been more productive" is both false, as demonstrated above, and also menaningless, because being targeted less frequently than a guy who plays the same spot as he does is, in itself, and indication that he doesn't stack up to Welker as a slot receiver.

If you cmpare welkers stats from 07 to cruz's 2012 stats where both players had approx the same number of targets you would see they both had similar numbers.

In reality its foolish to compare statd when both players play in different systems.
 
You clearly haven't watched much of Welker play. Teams bracket, jam, double team, do everything they can to him every game. He just knows how to get open.


I agree with nunchucks. He is never intentially double teamed. When he breaks inside on his read a linebacker will come help but there really isn't such a thing as a double team when there isn't coverage over the top which with Welker there never is.
 
If you cmpare welkers stats from 07 to cruz's 2012 stats where both players had approx the same number of targets you would see they both had similar numbers.

In reality its foolish to compare statd when both players play in different systems.

You made the stat comparison, buddy. I just showed how wrong it is to simply say that had one player been targeted as much he would've produced more. The facts are, he didn't produce as much as Welker did, period. Welker has done it for 6 seasons now, and Cruz' 2012 season would rank as Welker's worst apart from 2010 when he was coming back from an ACL tear. I don't see how anyone could argue Victor Cruz is a better bet to be productive in the Patriots' system than Welker is.
 
I agree with nunchucks. He is never intentially double teamed. When he breaks inside on his read a linebacker will come help but there really isn't such a thing as a double team when there isn't coverage over the top which with Welker there never is.

If shading a linebacker over to Welker's side when he comes over the middle isn't a double team, then how is shading a safety over to a receiver's side over the top a double team?
 
I agree with nunchucks. He is never intentially double teamed. When he breaks inside on his read a linebacker will come help but there really isn't such a thing as a double team when there isn't coverage over the top which with Welker there never is.

Given that opposing teams have talked about trying to double team Welker, including the man currently considered the best CB in the NFL:

Asked to describe Welker, Revis said, "Trouble. Trouble. The guy is very dangerous. Most teams double him in the slot. He's dangerous."

Revis will be covering ... take a guess - Jets Blog - ESPN New York

you might wish to revisit your post.
 
Cruz was running shorter routes because Eli was sucking

*LOL* Guess you don't realize that Eli was still throwing better than his career average..

Keep making excuses for Cruz.. Not gonna change reality (that I am not enthralled with Victor Cruz the way you seem to be)
 
If shading a linebacker over to Welker's side when he comes over the middle isn't a double team, then how is shading a safety over to a receiver's side over the top a double team?

Rod, every slot receiver is then double teamed? A mike linebacker who is defending the pass in zone is not a double team under anyone's definition. A safety over the top while the corner or outside linebacker is playing underneath is.
 
Well, I know Eli was sucking because he was on my fantasy team, so pretty much watched him suck every game. I know that Cruz was running shorter routes because...he has less YPC.

Besides that though, he still had 10 TDs.

oh and 18 YPC all the way down to a paltry 12 YPC...come on now.

You clearly are in denial. 18.7 YPC to 12.7 YPC is a HUGE drop. You trying to play it off as nothing just shows how you are grasping for straws.

Again, explain the 5 games with 40 or less yards.. Then talk to me..
 
*LOL* Guess you don't realize that Eli was still throwing better than his career average..

Keep making excuses for Cruz.. Not gonna change reality (that I am not enthralled with Victor Cruz the way you seem to be)

He had a few really good games and quite a few really crappy ones.

8 games with under 225 yards passing.
 
Given that opposing teams have talked about trying to double team Welker, including the man currently considered the best CB in the NFL:



Revis will be covering ... take a guess - Jets Blog - ESPN New York

you might wish to revisit your post.

I really don't think I will. A DB covering the slot and a middle linebacker is not the double team I envision when I think of the great receivers that demand it. I love what Welker brings but brings but teams fear him for his YAC rather than the initial reception.
 
You made the stat comparison, buddy. I just showed how wrong it is to simply say that had one player been targeted as much he would've produced more. The facts are, he didn't produce as much as Welker did, period. Welker has done it for 6 seasons now, and Cruz' 2012 season would rank as Welker's worst apart from 2010 when he was coming back from an ACL tear. I don't see how anyone could argue Victor Cruz is a better bet to be productive in the Patriots' system than Welker is.

I wouldn't say you showed "how wrong" your conclusion is based on a number of connected "if then" statements.
 
Cruz was targeted 143 times by Eli last year, and Welker was targeted 174 times by Brady. Let's assume Eli had thrown 31 more balls Cruz' way last year, and he had caught all of them (which would be a feat considering he was second in the league in drops last year). By multiplying those 31 catches by his 12.7 YPC you get 393 yards. Add that to his total of 1.092 receiving yards and you'd get 1485 yards, or 120 more than Welker.

But obviously, Cruz wouldn't catch all those 31 targets that separate him and Welker. Being that of those 143 balls thrown his way 86 were actually completed, his catch rate was 60.1%. So of those 31 targets, we could reasonably expect 19 being completed, which would net him about 242 more yards. So, had he been targeted as much as Welker he'd end up with around 1334 yards on 105 catches, which is less production than Welker had.

But even if this exercise shows that Cruz would still have a worst season than Welker had he seen the same amount of footballs thrown his way, your argument leaves out a crucial detail, which is, why do you think it is that Cruz was targeted less than Welker? Isn't it because he was open less often? And explain to me why did he have 32 less catches than Welker, while only been targeted 31 less times. His catch% was SIGNIFICANTLY lower, and his drop% was higher too. So either he wasn't open enough to get more targets or Eli didn't trust him enough to come up with the football to target him more. That's the reality of the 2012 season. Your scenario of "oh, if he received the same targets he would've been more productive" is both false, as demonstrated above, and also menaningless, because being targeted less frequently than a guy who plays the same spot as he does is, in itself, and indication that he doesn't stack up to Welker as a slot receiver.

Brady
- Total Pass Attempts: 637
- Targets to Welker: 174
- Welker Target %: 27.3%

Eli Manning
- Total Pass Attempts: 536
- Targets to Cruz: 143
- Cruz Target %: 26.7%

The target percentage is virtually the same for each player, so the reason why Cruz was targeted that much less than Welker simply has to do with the difference in the number of pass attempts made by both quarterbacks. If you project Cruz' target % out to the same number of pass attempts made by Tom Brady, then you end up with Eli Manning targeting Cruz 170 times, just four fewer than the number of Brady to Welker targets.

That's the answer to your bolded question above.
 
If shading a linebacker over to Welker's side when he comes over the middle isn't a double team, then how is shading a safety over to a receiver's side over the top a double team?

The LB is playing zone, if you think zone is a double team...
 
I really don't think I will. A DB covering the slot and a middle linebacker is not the double team I envision when I think of the great receivers that demand it. I love what Welker brings but brings but teams fear him for his YAC rather than the initial reception.

So, basically, you're saying that the best NFL cornerback telling you that teams double team a player isn't good enough for you to admit that teams double team a player?

Ok, I've had enough of the new posters that can't be bothered to actually think and learn this offseason. Off to ignore with you.
 
So, basically, you're saying that the best NFL cornerback telling you that teams double team a player isn't good enough for you to admit that teams double team a player?

Ok, I've had enough of the new posters that can't be bothered to actually think and learn this offseason. Off to ignore with you.

Yep I'm the new poster who has been around 8 years. I disagree with what Revis is interpreting as a double team. As a Patriot fan I'm sure you are well versed in the philosophy of killing your opponent with praise and kindness...
 
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