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Jason Cole's secondary rankings - let the disrespect begin

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by stinkypete, Jul 20, 2010.

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  1. stinkypete

    stinkypete Rookie

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    Just to give you an idea of what the people who clearly don't pay any attention at all are thinking about our Patriots. Cole has the secondary ranked #22 in the league. Despite ranking #12 last year in defensive pass yards and #13 in defensive passer rating.

    DB rankings: Here's why Jets top the Pack - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

    "Between draft picks Brandon Meriweather(notes), Darius Butler(notes), Patrick Chung(notes), Jonathan Wilhite(notes) and now Devin McCourty(notes), the Pats have found only one consistent starter (Meriweather) and he still looks clueless from time to time. The Pats still have some stopgaps with vets like Leigh Bodden(notes), but they really need to find some good, long-term answers."

    Well, apparently both Butler and McCourty are already busts. Must have slept through the 2010 and 2011 seasons. How'd we do?
  2. Rob0729

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    Who cares? I do think his comment of only finding one consistent starter of draft picks and including at least McCourty in that mix is stupid considering McCourty hasn't even had his first training camp.

    Darrell Revis wasn't a stud his rookie season so writing off Butler is a bit early. Not that I think he will ever be as good as Revis.

    BTW, Coles says in his QB ratings that he thinks Brady may be falling apart due to injuries:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Atai.cvwiuHpeTk6yJPpbT_sYNAF?slug=jc-qbrankings051810

    I never liked Coles because he is a Miami rump swab and Pats hater and he lets his biases show in his writing. Hence why he is at Yahoo Sports and not a legitimate publication.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2010
  3. RussFrancis

    RussFrancis Rookie

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    Our secondary is still largely unproven. Two of our projected starters, at least imo, Chung and Butler, have alot to prove. I think we'd all agree with that. And alot of people's lasting memory of Merriweather right now is that absolutely pathetic angle he took on Ray Rice during that opening TD scamper of the Baltimore game. Not saying he stinks or anything, but as a leader of our secondary, and it definitely needs a leader, he's still pretty much unproven. I like Bodden alot, but we're asking him to be our #1 more than likely, and Im not sure alot of outsiders really see him in that light. Theyve just got alot to prove as a unit, and there's nothing wrong with that. Im hopeful rankings like this will change drastically during the course of the season.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2010
  4. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm sure someone will be along any minute to explain to us that we're irrationally attacking the media, who is most assuredly unbiased in their analysis and judgment, and that Mr. Cole has many cogent and well-researched points about the Pats secondary.

    This is not to mention the inevitable mantra that the only way we would be happy with any media reports is if they were complimentary toward the Pats.

    It's not possible that the media could ever be wrong. After all, it IS published, right?
  5. DarrylS

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    Despite all of the semantical arguments.. #22 is a bit low.
  6. NSPF

    NSPF Rookie

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    Bodden's only a stopgap? And we signed him for 22 million?!
  7. RussFrancis

    RussFrancis Rookie

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    I dont know that we need to get into a whole lot of that, but 22 IS pretty low. Especially considering we've got a Pro Bowl safety, and our head coach has pretty much proven himself to be a Dback specialist. Not that it really needed alot of respect. Youd expect maybe just a little more than 22.
  8. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If you ask me to name a play from Meriweather, the first thing that will always come to mind for me is that absolutely perfect safety blitz against the Seahawks.
  9. Rob0729

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    Coles was so "cogent and well-researched" that he apparently hasn't realized that McCourty hasn't even had a chance to play a down in the NFL yet.

    I personally don't give a crap about his rankings, but Coles was and always will be a moron. He could have the Pats ranked #1 in every category and I would think that. I have never respected the guy as a writer and it has nothing to do with article. In fact, I am glad he ranks the Pats' secondary so low.
  10. TommyBrady12

    TommyBrady12 Rookie

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    bodden won't be around after his contract expires. he is a stopgap until mccourty is ready to start.

    the future of our secondary is:

    CB - Butler

    CB - McCourty

    SS - Meriweather

    FS - Chung

    Every time I think about our secondary I am reminded of peyton and brees carving it up from last year. with that said, i don't think the jets secondary is that great. I think they are very good at CB but their safeties are nothing to write home about.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2010
  11. Rob0729

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    Yeah, that was another stupid comment. Bodden was a solid #2 CB last year. Not good enough to be lining up against the opposing team's best WR, but good enough to line up on the right side and not let any big plays by and make a few picks while he is at it. Rather have him than say Cromartie who's reputation is far better than his production.
  12. Calciumee

    Calciumee PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think of that, and his pick 6 against TB this season :) The first Patriots TD I saw :D
  13. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So he is a four year stopgap?
  14. Calciumee

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    More of a stophole :) Bigger than a gap :)
  15. ScottieC

    ScottieC Rookie

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    Cool, so the Jets with the July 2010 Super Bowl - Excellent. Not sure what that get's ya, but they can have it.
  16. RussFrancis

    RussFrancis Rookie

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    This is a what have you done for me lately, specifically in the playoffs, league. And that Seattle game was 2 years ago and it was against a horrible, 4-win team in a non-playoff game. So, no offense, but nice play, didnt mean much. The Ray Rice debacle of an opening run leaves far greater a memory for me, personally. And I hope Merriweather feels the same way. Because that play would have been burning a hole thru Rodney Harrison's pride all offseason. He's become a nice player. We just need more overall consistency from him.
  17. patriotscpfc

    patriotscpfc Rookie

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    Meriweather will be locked in at FS this year.
  18. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    I would say it's a fair assessment of the patriots secondary.
  19. Deus Irae

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    Indeed....

    The last consistent NFL-level CBs drafted were Hobbs and Samuel, and that's obviously from some time back. I think Coles missed the boat regarding Sanders, though, who might not be great, but is consistent. He also may, or may not, be selling Bodden a bit short, but time will tell on that one.

    If McCourty, Butler and the rest of the kiddie corps play well this year, evaluation articles like this one will be much more positive next year.


    Follow up:

    It's not as if it's just Cole pointing this stuff out. Here's Curran on the topic:

    http://www.csnne.com/07/19/10/Patriots-secondary-should-be-first-prior/v1_landing_patriots.html?blockID=273637&feedID=3352
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2010
  20. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    Baltimore at #5? :eek: I can't believe nobody has mentioned this. Talk about overrated. Take away Ed Reed and they have the worst secondary in the NFL. They are one of the best of hiding their deficiencies with their scheme (but not from me).

    And to whoever thinks the Pats are being disrespected, go pound sand. They haven't shown anything yet.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2010
  21. sbpatfan

    sbpatfan Banned

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    If I had a spare bullet I'd use it on that guy.
  22. jmt57

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    At this point the Pats' secondary is not elite, but #22 seems to be way too low. As mentioned above, statistically the group ranked much higher, so I don't see a valid reason for them to be palced that low when you consider the only "loss" was Springs. It's funny, on some teams a high draft pick is viewed as an improvement and a reason to rank that team or position higher; in this case it's apparently a reason to rank them lower because they are unknowns. Would Cole prefer Deltha O'Neal and Springs were still on the roster, or equivalents to them joined the roster in the offseason? And I don't see the correlation between Wheatley not playing to expectations and other rookies or second year players (McCourty, Butler, Chung) automatically destined to the same future.

    Regarding Curran's piece, in the end of the year games he used as a point of reference, the opposing offense was held to 220 or fewer passing yards five out of seven time, and under 200 passing yards four out of seven times. I could just as easily see those same identical stats as positive, that the glass is half full.

    Because of the way officials are told to call penalties since after the 2004 season, passing yardage is, and will continue to be up. Expectations need to be altered. Ultimately the success of the secondary will be just as dependent on the play of the linebackers, both inside and outside, as their own play.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2010
  23. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

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    here is my secondary ranking


    #1 Oakland Raiders. they are much better at sefety and Nnamdi Asomugha, only gets thrown at 20 times a season


    #2 Green Bay Packers. al harris, is one of the most physical CB in the NFL and Darrelle Revis, had a amazing year. but it was Charles Woodson, who won Defensive Player of the Year. with he's 9 INT's and 3 TD's


    #3 New York Jets. they have two of the best starting CB's in the NFL but they are week at safety thats why i can't put them #1


    #4 Denver Broncos. Champ Bailey, is still one of the best in the NFL and Brian Dawkins, is a physical beast at FS


    #5 Baltimore Ravens. i think there starting CB's are not great but with ed reed, at FS and that pass rush they will be hard to throw the ball on


    #6 Philadelphia Eagles. there starting CB's we all know them hoobs is a good starting CB and a great KR and samuel, is a ball hawk and they are pretty good at safety


    #7 Arizona Cardinals. DRC at CB and Adrian Wilson, at SS they are a top 10 secondary


    #8 Cincinnati Bengals. they have some good young talent CB and they are deep and some good vets at safety


    #9 San Diego Chargers. two big physical CB's in Cason, and Jammer, will make it hard for teams to throw on them


    #10 Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Aqib Talib, is one of the best young CB's in the NFL and Tanard Jackson, was pretty good at FS last year. they are a top 10 secondary and a top 10 defense as whole IMO


    #11 San Francisco 49ers. they are not great at CB but there front 7 is maybe the best in the NFL and Patrick Willis, is one of the best cover LB's in the NFL they will help out that secondary a lot


    #12 Carolina Panthers. two good young CB's and some talent at S but with out there top pass rusher peppers they will have to cover dose WR's a lil longer.


    #13 Dallas Cowboys. they are not great at CB or S but they have the best pass rush in the NFL a QB can't comp a pass on he's back and thats why i have them in the top 15


    #14 Washington Redskins. two good starting CB's and a great pass rush they will end the year ranked higher then 14th vs the pass because they are a great defense over all.


    #15 Seattle Seahawks. Pete Carroll, was one of the best DB coachs in the NFL and he has some talent to work with up there.


    #16 Miami Dolphins. good young talent at CB and a good pass rush.


    #17 Tennessee Titans. Cortland Finnegan, Michael Griffin, Chris Hope, they have some talent there if they can get a pass rush going they will be good


    #18 Minnesota Vikings. not great at DB but they do have a great pass rush and they are the best in the NFL at stoping the run so teams will all was be in 3rd and long.


    #19 Pittsburgh Steelers. after Troy Polamalu, they are weak but there pass rush makes up for them


    #20 New Orleans Saints. unless Darren Sharper, and Will Smith, have back to back Career years the saints will find out fast that there defense is average at best.


    #21 New England Patriots i have them ranked this low cause i just don't see were the pass rush is going to come from and if Wilhite, is covering the other teams 3rd best WR they are in for a long season.


    #22 Cleveland Browns. Eric Wright, is a good young CB and Sheldon Brown, is a good vet but the browns are just a bad team over all.


    #23 Jacksonville Jaguars. they have some talent at DB but they are the worst pass rushing team in the NFL


    #24 Houston Texans, there front 7 should help out there secondary but they are still weak at DB


    #25 Kansas City Chiefs, they have some good young talent at DB but a weak pass rush and a realy bad offense wont help them out.


    #26 Atlanta Falcons. they are weak at DB and Dunta Robinson, is over rated IMO


    #27 Indianapolis Colts. great pass rush but with out bob sanders, and it looks like they will be with out him they are less then average at DB

    #28 Buffalo Bills. they are moveing to a all new 3-4 and IMO they don't have the player up front to play the 3-4 this will hurt the secondary and i cant see there rookie FS Jairus Byrd, haveing 9 INT's again


    #29 Chicago Bears, weak secondary and average pass rush we seen a lot of players after geting record contracts just not be the same player the next year. like haynesworth, and Nate Clements, i think peppers maybe be the next one


    #30 New York Giants, when there pass rush is not geting it done they are just a bad defense.


    #31 St. Louis Rams. just a bad team and a rookie QB is not going to help that defense one bit


    #32 Detroit Lions. i think they have some good young talent on both sides of the ball but lets face it they are still the lions.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2010
  24. Deus Irae

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    1.) How do you expect Cole to rank unknowns who aren't even starters to this point? If the season started tomorrow, Bodden and Butler would be the CBs, with Meriweather and Sanders/Chung/McGowan at safety.

    2.) Last year's rankings were deceiving (5th in scoring defense). That's pretty well understood by the vast majority of people. The Patriots certainly understood that, as has been clearly demonstrated by their offseason moves. Multiple veterans signed for the RDE position and last year's starter allowed to move on, along with a starting OLB, and the cutting of Springs. The team's #1 pick used for a CB. Two linebackers chosen in the second round. It's not as if one needs to consult Madam Zelda to see where the Patriots felt the areas of concern were.
  25. jmt57

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    First, the only departure in the secondary was Springs, who was not much of a factor last year. Therefore the characterization of the entire unit as being 'unknowns' is a bit overstated.

    Second, the point I was making is that it is not unusual for national sports writers to point to rookie additions as a positive that improves the unit. An example would be how many in the media portrayed the Dolphins' secondary with the addition of Vontae Davis and Sean Smith. My comment was simply pointing out that in other cases sportswriters see the addition of early round draft choices to a unit as a positive; in this case it is being looked upon as a negative, apparently due to Wheatley not living up to his draft status.

    I agree last year's pass defense rankings were deceiving. Never made the claim they should be ranked 5th by Cole or anyone else. Just pointed out that with a grouping that statistically ranked that high, that Cole ranking them #22 might be a bit low. I'd say that with a year in the system that is's reasonable to expect Bodden and McGowan to play as well if not better. Biggest leap in production is typically in a player's second or third year, so it seems reasonable to expect more from either Butler, Chung or both. No reason to expect a dropoff in the play of Sanders or Wilhite. McCourty may replace Wilhite as a third corner, which would mean improved play from the slot corner.

    The changes at ILB, OLB and RDE should help the secondary as well. Are there question marks? Sure. Ranking a unit by itselfis difficult and subjective, as their performance is in such a large part determined by the play of the other units. Just my opinion, #22 seemed a bit low to me.
  26. Sicilian

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    A few things:

    1) If our pass defense was ranked 12th and our QB rating against ranked 13th (in other words, both on the higher side of average), and our front seven was considered below average at generating pressure, the secondary HAS to be considered above average last year. With the only departure being Springs, and no one else being all that old, there's no reason to think the secondary is getting worse. Thus, we're above average again this year.

    2) As others have mentioned, listing McCourty among those from whom they "haven't found a consistent starter" is asinine.

    3) Bodden is signed for 4 years. That's not a stop gap.

    Slowest time of the year brings out the most worthless crap articles.
  27. Deus Irae

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    You're the one who used the term "unknowns":

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/350987-jason-coles-secondary-rankings-let-disrespect-begin.html#post1859171

    Cole didn't use it, and I used it in response to you.

    This is simply reading into things that aren't there. Cole never even brings Wheatley into the discussion.

    That is not what you said. Here's what you posted:

    and then went on about O'Neal and the "unknowns". "Way too low" and "a bit low" are two different animals.

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/350987-jason-coles-secondary-rankings-let-disrespect-begin.html#post1859171

    How so? Will Spikes be in on passing downs and playing like a veteran with awesome range? How does the loss of last year's starting OLB help the team this season when there's been no upgrade at the position that we can definitely point to at this point in time? What's the amount of improvement to the secondary do you think someone like Cole should be factoring in with Warren/Lewis in the lineup, with Warren coming off of a 2 sack season (career high is 5.5) and Lewis is coming off of a 0.5 sack season (career high is 5.0)?
  28. Rob0729

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    Sorry, calling Bodden who was a solid #2 CB last year nothing more than stopgap is not a fair assessment in my book.

    Basically saying McCourty not consistent even before he has a shot to prove himself is not a fair assessment either. Although since this is Jason Cole and Yahoo Sports, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and chock that up to poor sentence structure.
  29. TommyBrady12

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    i don't even think ed reed is even that good. he's a ball hawk like asante samuel. he lives and dies on making interceptions. however, as a cover safety, i don't think he's that great.
  30. jmt57

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    Congratulations in turning yet another thread off topic by talking in circles. Yes, you are correct, you used the word unknowns and not Cole. Cole was either implying they are of unknown quality, or poor quality.

    That is true he does not. He does say "between draft picks ... the Pats have found only one consistent starter". He does not mention Wheatley. However, it is not reasonable to expect players to be "consistent starters" in their rookie year, and it's impossible for a draftee who has yet to sign his contract to be a consistent NFL starter. I made an assumption, which I felt was a reasonable one, that if he was looking for a recent draftee that had not lived up to his draft status, then it was Wheatley.



    You're the resident expert in semantics. That sure seems what you prefer to talk about, which is really too bad because when you actually talk about football you really have a whole lot to offer. I'll leave it to you to quantify the difference between "way too low" and "a bit too low".


    I was primarily thinking about ILB, which is why I mentioned that position first. I believe a healthy Mayo and the addition of McKenzie will make that position much stronger. Anything from Spikes will be an additional bonus. As for OLB, I'm basing that on what I perceived to be much improved play from Burgess toward the end of the season. Perhaps it was a case of him taking that long to understand this system. I don't see the loss of Adalius Thomas as a negative, nor do most other people. I didn't see much of anything from Jarvis Green last year, which makes me think there's a good chance that Warren/Lewis will be an improvement.
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