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Jacoby Ellsbury..

Discussion in 'Red Sox Fan Forum' started by DarrylS, Sep 2, 2007.

  1. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    looks like he is following the lead of Bucholz, great fielding.. homerun, gotta love these new kids.. maybe we should break tradition, let them run out the season, bench J.D. Drew.. .maybe their desire will get infectious. Gonna be tough to keep them off the big team next year.. Moss is close behind.
  2. patriotspride

    patriotspride Banned

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    theres a very good chance coco will be traded this off season to make room for ellsbury .i dont know if thats good or bad .i would like to see them find a way to keep both .but i doubt it.
  3. dalero

    dalero PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Nice win!! Started 4 Rooks then brought in another in Oki who was real good today. These kids playing and excelling in a pennant race at Fenway is pretty amazing.
  4. Foley

    Foley Rookie

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    It's a good thing. Crisp very quietly put together a terrible August, so if they can get anything of value back in a trade than they should do it. His hot stretch in June and July was encouraging, but hes turned back into the Coco Crisp from the beginning of the year.

    Barring a serious injury I can't see a scenario where Ellsbury is not the fulltime CF next year. Although... Ellsbury would be a nice replacement for a departing Torii Hunter in Minnesota and could headline a trade for a certain disgruntled best pitcher in baseball. But thats just a pipe dream on my part.
  5. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH
    We have enough pitching! Ellsbury has roctketed through the minors, I watched him in Class A and he was a man amoungts boys. This kid should be starting TODAY, nevermind next year. He has faster than Coco, has more power, higher average, better base stealer, the only thing that Coco might have on him is fielding and only slightly. If he isn't in centefield when the playoffs begin, I'll be pissed.
  6. Foley

    Foley Rookie

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    Sure, hes better than Crisp. Thats not a complement and I wasn't saying otherwise. Ellsbury has hit a total of 11HR since being drafted by the Red Sox, is the owner a .380SLG this season at AAA (.425SLG career), and despite the amazing speed he has only 36 extrabase hits this season. Hes a very good basestealer and will hit for a decent average, but his power is not an advantage. Not that anyone else really thinks otherwise.

    I'm sorry if you think using him to trade for the best pitcher in baseball is so asinine, but if a singles hitter with 40SB a season can be a big piece in a trade to get him than it should be done.
  7. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    Crisp's defense is awesome...he might not drive in a bunch of runs, but a run saved is as good as a run scored. I'd rather lose Drew (and his monster salary) and move one of the other two to right.
  8. patriotspride

    patriotspride Banned

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    who wouldnt love to see drew gone .but with his salary and poor performance no team is going to take him unless the sox eat most of his contract .i think coco is gone after this year .
  9. patsfanofNC12

    patsfanofNC12 Rookie

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    That is just what I was thinking
    :agree:
  10. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat Rookie

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    I love it when people say the Sox should keep Coco and get rid of Drew. Coco was worse last year than Drew has been this year.

    Coco is a 1-dimensional player right now, and that one dimension had not been displayed in prior years. Maybe he achieved a new level of defensive ability, but he could also just be having a career year defensively.

    Coco has done nothing to show that he's half the player offensively he was in Cleveland. Ship him out while you can try to sell him as the best defensive CF in the game.

    The only way I want to see Coco in a Boston uniform next year is if Ellsbury can get them a stud in a trade (I had always hoped they could do an Ellsbury+ for Salty before Atlanta traded him). I'd be perfectly happy losing Jacoby as part of a package for Cabrera or Santana, but those are pipe dreams.
  11. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    Yeah, except Drew's done nothing. I'd rather have one great dimension than none at all.
  12. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat Rookie

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    Last year Coco didn't even have that. I'm just saying I'd take 2007 Drew over 2006 Coco, that's how awful Coco was last year.

    The comparison going forward is between Coco and Ellsbury (not Drew). One stays and one goes. Using one of them at right would be wasting their primary value (CF defense), and neither has the arm for right anyway. Coco is one-dimensional. Ellsbury has the potential to not be.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2007
  13. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    My calendar says it's not 2006.
  14. SJNez46

    SJNez46 Rookie

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    Noooo... I love Coco. He is the best. Drop Drew or something. What has he done for us?
    Nothing
  15. Foley

    Foley Rookie

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    Crisp last year was below average defensively, posting a 99 Fielding Rate and -1 Runs Above Average. This year he has managed to improve his defense substantially with a 118FR and a 21RAA. For whatever reason a guy who lost his position in Cleveland to a mediocre defensive CF has suddenly become gold glove caliber.

    If he can suddenly go from below average to amazing in a year, whose to say he can't go back to below average again? When a guy suddenly has a year that is far and away superior to anything he has ever done before, expecting it to continue will likely lead to disappointment. Do you expect Mike Lowell to hit .330 again, despite never hitting higher than .293 his entire career? If Manny plays a phenomenal left field next year will you expect it to continue? Crisp had a very long history of being below average defensively in CF, hence losing the position in Cleveland. This is out of the blue, unexpected, and as TomBrady'sGoat suggested, most likely just a career year. Holding on to a guy who has been horrendous offensively in 3 of the 5 months of the season just because of gold glove defense is a mistake, especially when that defense came out of nowhere.

    Plus, trading Drew now would be stupid. His value is low, and theres no evidence to suggest that he is having anything more than an off year. Players occasionally just have years where they don't hit as well as usual (Lowell in 2005, Varitek in 2006), and then typically the poor performance leaves as quickly as it arrived. Other than an injury, this is the only real explanation that could explain this year for him.
  16. Patti37

    Patti37 Rookie

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    Coco never really came back from his injury last year...he came back too early...I am willing to bet that it never really totally healed until the off season...that is where he gets the benefit of the doubt.

    Drew, at least publically, does not have that as an excuse/reason.
  17. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Jacoby 3 hits last night, one double away from the cycle, against Roy Holiday,gonna be hard not to play this kid after Manny comes back.. he is infectious and the future. Put him in right field..
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
  18. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    Crisp at least cares enough to try. It's painfully obvious that Drew has no passion for the game, either offensively or defensively, and is just collecting a paycheck. I'm not saying they could trade Drew; I'm just saying that if I was going to keep just one, it'd be Crisp, and I'd hope that his new defensive excellence is a trend and not a fluke.
  19. Stokes

    Stokes Rookie

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    I'd personally like to see Coco and Ellsbury in the outfield next year, but its just not going to happen. There's no way anyone is going to take JD Drew and his contract right now, and I'm guessing the Sox are going to be unwilling to eat like 25 to 30 million of his deal to get him out of here. I guess the question is what do you get by trading Coco? They had a perfect situation with Atlanta and trading Coco plus something else for the catcher Saltalamacchia (sp?). They get Tek's replacement, and Atl gets a replacement for Andru Jones.
  20. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat Rookie

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    Foley: Thank you. You backed up with stats what I've been trying to say. Coco is having a career year defensively. Everyone assumes he has achieved a new level of play and that he'll be this great from here on out. I just don't see it.

    In Cleveland he was a good/great defensive LF but average or below average CF. He came to Boston and performed similarly in CF last year. I just don't see how his performance this year is how he should be judged going forward.

    I will say this very slowly for you and the other who cannot grasp it.

    This... is... Drew's... first... year... in... Boston. New... players... sometimes... need... a... year... to... adjust. Last... year... was... Coco's... first... year... in... Boston. Coco... was... far... worse... last... year... than... Drew... is... this... year. Therefore (watch out, I'm using logic)... Drew... will... be... much... better... than... Coco... after... adjusting.

    This is about next year. We're trying to predict future performance. Coco's 2006 vs. Drew's 2007 is relevant.

    I understand all of the "I hate Drew, he doesn't care" stuff. My brother is the leader of the "J D Drew has no heart" club. I myself hate Drew because he sucks this year. I don't care if he has no heart. I care that he can't knock a guy in from 2nd.

    Also, I'm pretty much ready to say that Coco will never again be the offensive player he was in Cleveland (you know, the good player we traded for). What we see here is what we'll get, a guy who'll hit 260 and get on-base at a .330 rate. Maybe his Slug% will get a little better and he'll approach .400. He'll steal some bases when he actually gets on base. Oh, and he might play stellar defense.

    His hot streak is over. Coco has regressed to the same awful player he was at the beginning of the year. I too had hoped he had figured something out and "bad Coco" was behind him. It isn't.

    That's who J D Drew is this year. At his absolute worst, during his adjustment to the AL and Boston, J D Drew is Coco Crisp. His defense isn't as good but he gets on base more. The difference between the two is that Drew is likely to be better next year, perhaps even much better. Let's look at a bad year for Drew, 2002 with StL. .252/.349/.429. I'd kill for that from Coco (and it won't be happening).

    So basically, Drew has been awful this year and I've hated his play as much as the rest of you. Unlike many Sox fans, I'm not entranced by Coco and see the fact that he's a bad player. Coco's value is as high as it will be (thanks to his CF defense) and the Sox have a replacement ready to play next year. Drew's value is at an all-time low and trading him will involve eating a lot of salary, and the Sox don't have a good replacement (Ellsbury doesn't have the arm for right long-term, nor the power you want from a right fielder). Coco isn't likely to be any better next year while Drew is.

    So, looking at next year, why would the team hold onto Coco over Drew?

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