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itt, we discuss Oliver Stone's "Untold U.S. History" series

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Titus Pullo, Jan 10, 2013.

  1. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    Showtime : Oliver Stone's Untold History of the United States : Home

    is anyone watching this on ShowTime? Good stuff. Lots of rare footage and testimony. And a fresh reminder that Russia bore the vast brunt of winning WWII. That alone will piss off little McCarthyists everywhere.

    But, holy **** did we do some horrible, horrible things around the world after WWII. I mean, I knew most of the individual atrocities, but Stone and Kuznik do a great job with pacing and connecting dots. I'm confident LeMay, Hoover and Dulles all have a special place in Hell to this day.

    I love our leaders' rapacious pattern of paranoia in Central and South America, where we overreact for the sake of big business. Usually goes like this: coroporation A loses a tiny bit of profit margin for the sake of a living wage for natives in that country, the CIA gets involved, murders/subverts some democratically elected head of state, leftists revolt and are crushed, business returns to normal, the poor suffer anew all over again. Rinse, repeat.

    The series also does justice to the legacy of the great Henry Wallace, driven out by his own party and marginalized as "too soft" after FDR's death. Imagining a world led by Wallace instead of Truman after Spring 1945 is palpable. ... also Truman comes close to matching the arrogant idiocy of George W. Bush - wrong man, wrong time.

    Anyhow, the final episode is Monday, where they'll finally cover 9/11 and the great Iraq lie. Looking forward to it.


    Stone and Kuznick inverviewed on DemocracyNow about the series:
    Oliver Stone on the Untold U.S. History from Atomic Age, Vietnam to Obama's Drone War 1 of 2 - YouTube
  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Just finished season 1 & 2 of "Homeland", not as good as "24".

    Will have to check it out..
  3. OMGWTFJUDD

    OMGWTFJUDD Rookie

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    Looking forward to seeing it in Oz.
  4. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    Titus - What is the context for for the bolded above?

    Number of casualties, money spent etc etc etc?

    EDIT: I should note that I am an avid WW2 buff and from a casualty standpoint (both military and civilian) it is a fact that the SU had far higher numbers of causalities than the rest of the Allies. I just didn't know if that was the angle Stone was going for/at.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  5. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    everyone who made deals with the nazis deserved higher casualties.
  6. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    I suppose....

    My post wasn't so much about deserving or not deserving, just acknowledging the fact that the Soviet Union had something in the order of 25 times more casualties than the other big 2 (UK/US) combined (military and civilian).
  7. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    but not as many as the chinese

    what's the point? the war was not carried out in north america......of course there will be fewer casualties

    also, stalin killed more of his own in his purges than american lives were lost in WW2 before WW2 even started
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  8. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    The Chinese lost somewhere around 20M in WW2, while the Soviet Union lost from 23-25M based on readily available information on the net.

    How and who killed who (Stalin) wasn't the point I was making.

    I think the point from the OP as well as my followup points was if you ask many Americans about WW2, their facts would be mainly based on what is taught in our schools, which is a very American centric POV, which can ignore many of the historical facts.

    America's post war hatred of the big red bear lead our history writers to ignore much of the reality of that period in time (not unique to that time btw, history is always told from the POV of the writer; omissions and changes exist through our species existence).
  9. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    That the Soviets faced something like 5-6 times as many Nazi divisions, and the full brunt of the Nazi war machine's Blitzkreig, and threw it back. That the Soviets denied the Nazis the oil-rich Caucuses.

    It's pretty clear to me that England would have eventually fallen if Hitler didn't turn his attention east. And we'd have had no where to launch an invasion, but from maybe Africa.

    It's interesting that a poster here suggests Russia got what it deserved for "making deals" with Nazis. Perhaps he forgets countless U.S. corporations that did the very same.
  10. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    True. I have read in one of my many books on the subject that 3 out of every 4 Nazi soldiers fought on the Eastern Front; outside of the Luftwaffe, which was busy dealing with the Mighty 8th (amongst others).

    Not to mention the Russians faced sieges (and all the bad things that come with them) at some of their largest cities (Stalingrad for one).

    The Russians did deny much of the oil but not all. Romania and Yugoslavia come to mind (although much of the refineries there were synthetics.

    I would agree. England was our only offensive point of origin for raids from basically 2/42 until the Allies beat the Germans back in Italy and North Africa.

    Wasn't Ford one of them? I recall reading that Ford assiting the Germans in building war materials (at least in the run up to US involvement post Pearl Harbor).
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  11. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Watched the first episode tonight well done, some of the stuff I had never heard, specifically how dumb Hitler was geographically and how if Japan had aligned itself more with Hitler, and if Hitler was not greedy about Russia the world would be much different..
  12. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    Very possible Darryl.

    Germany had everyone beat on technology of all kinds (in some cases by a lot).

    Their engineers (who were later our's) were the envy of the world.

    Barbarossa was the preverbal straw.
  13. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If Germany, Russia and Japan had combined their resources and headed south they could have conquered all of asia, europe and northwestern africa..

    All of Britains Colonies expressed little loyalty to their masters...

    However hyper inflated ego's and psychologically damaged leaders precluded this from happening..
  14. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    They kinda did no?

    Germany took over all of Europe (basically) and Northern Africa (Morocco, Libya etc).

    Japan conquered China, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, and all the small island chains in the South Pacific, basically circumventing the the Pacific Rim (Aleutians to the Solomons)

    Their undoing was picking a fight with two countries (US and USSR) who had the means to out produce them - in terms of actual production and resource allocation.

    ie Germany produced tanks that were far and away the best tanks of the day, namely the King Tiger and Panther.

    But when you have the manpower and resources to only build/maintain 500 King Tiger's and 6,000 Panthers, it makes it impossible to defeat Armys who are rolling with 84,000 T-34s (USSR) and 50,000 Shermans (US).

    EDIT: I should note my numbers for units produced are total units, not just war time units (but the point remains the same).
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
  15. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    If the Soviet Union aligned itself with Germany and Japan, they would not have gotten anything from the US through lend-lease and would not have made the same kind of difference.

    It was not like the soviet Union was war-ready in any way.....and they would have never mobilized had they not been attacked.

    a very far-fetched notion.....
  16. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    Molotov-Ribbentrop was basically a deal between the SU and Germany that the Germans would take Poland while the Soviets took the Baltics

    the T34's were built in a faftory provided by the US

    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
  17. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    They were built in many factories, however I have never heard they were US provided factories.

    Can you point me to some info on that?
  18. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact On the Roster

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    In total, the US deliveries through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks); 11,400 aircraft and 1,75 million tons of food

    there are better details than this available....but it was big

    Lend-Lease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  19. Drewski

    Drewski Rookie

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    Thanks for the link IC. Appreciate it.
  20. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What is interesting is that the whole Russia entering the war against Japan brought them to the brink of surrender...

    How they got rid of Wallace and put inept Truman in his spot was equally interesting..

    Also interesting are Generals like Eisenhower and LeMay along with Admiral Nimitz were against a nuclear device..
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013

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